China Confiscates Bibles From American Christians

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1633702' date='Aug 21 2008, 02:16 PM']I would not saying communism is the worst form of government. Dictatorship, Tolitarianism are much, much worse than communism.[/quote]

Totalitarianism is a daughter or product of Communism. Where a state regulates every aspect of public and private life.

A dictatorship is not necessarily a evil form of government. Even some kings of the past who are now Saints, would today be considered dictators. The problem with Communism is that like Satan it outright rejects God, and works against Him and His people.

Edited August 21, 2008 by KnightofChrist

[Farsight one]

Pardon, but communism does not outright reject God. Communism has the religious beliefs of those in charge, which for the most part has so far meant non-theistic regimes. Dictionary.com defines it as this:

1. a theory or system of social organization based on the holding of all property in common, actual ownership being ascribed to the community as a whole or to the state.
2. (often initial capital letter) a system of social organization in which all economic and social activity is controlled by a totalitarian state dominated by a single and self-perpetuating political party.
3. (initial capital letter) the principles and practices of the Communist party.

I've never seen religion being forbidden by default on Communism - that's just the way it's happened to be so far.

As an aside - I don't understand quite how the Vatican works, but doesn't the pope have total control over it's laws, finances, etc? Sure, he delegates the responsibilities to others, but he still has final say. Doesn't that make the Vatican government somewhat Communistic? Or at least a dictatorship? Not that a 900 person country really counts in this regard...

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Farsight one' post='1633765' date='Aug 21 2008, 05:07 PM']Pardon, but communism does not outright reject God. Communism has the religious beliefs of those in charge, which for the most part has so far meant non-theistic regimes. Dictionary.com defines it as this:

1. a theory or system of social organization based on the holding of all property in common, actual ownership being ascribed to the community as a whole or to the state.
2. (often initial capital letter) a system of social organization in which all economic and social activity is controlled by a totalitarian state dominated by a single and self-perpetuating political party.
3. (initial capital letter) the principles and practices of the Communist party.[/quote]

1, 2, and 3 are why the Church condemns Communism.

[quote name='Farsight one' post='1633765' date='Aug 21 2008, 05:07 PM']I've never seen religion being forbidden by default on Communism - that's just the way it's happened to be so far.[/quote]

Do you understand the basis of Communism, and the writings of Karl Marx? There is a reason why every single communist state has outright rejected God. And that is because it is a foundation of Communism.

[quote name='Farsight one' post='1633765' date='Aug 21 2008, 05:07 PM']As an aside - I don't understand quite how the Vatican works, but doesn't the pope have total control over it's laws, finances, etc? Sure, he delegates the responsibilities to others, but he still has final say. Doesn't that make the Vatican government somewhat Communistic? Or at least a dictatorship? Not that a 900 person country really counts in this regard...[/quote]

The Holy See is not in any way a communist state. The Church condemns Communism, it could not and would not condemn something if She did the same.

[MissScripture]

[quote name='Farsight one' post='1633765' date='Aug 21 2008, 05:07 PM']As an aside - I don't understand quite how the Vatican works, but doesn't the pope have total control over it's laws, finances, etc? Sure, he delegates the responsibilities to others, but he still has final say. Doesn't that make the Vatican government somewhat Communistic? Or at least a dictatorship? Not that a 900 person country really counts in this regard...[/quote]
If you considered the Vatican communistic, wouldn't that make any past government that was a monarchy communist?

[Socrates]

[quote name='Farsight one' post='1633290' date='Aug 20 2008, 10:46 PM']Stand your ground on offending me, or stand your ground on the belief that what China is doing is wrong?

As for me - I don't just side with someone simply because they are Christian. Or my friend or my family. I side with who I think is right. Part of our job here on earth is to help each other become better people and thus closer to God. If you just blindly side with the Christians, or your friends, or phorum mates, or whoever in a situation for the simple fact that they are what or who they are, no one learns anything. So I side with who I think is right in each specific case. In this case, I happened to side with the Communist regime. They're not necessarily bad. Communism, provided you can find an uncorruptable leader, is the best form of government. (obviously everyone so far has been corruptable though. And many doubt that a truly uncorruptable person exists.)

I see that I was mistaken now. Consequently, I see that I was mistaken only because none of you were so quick to blindly side with me for whatever reason.[/quote]
As a Catholic Christian, you certainly ought to be siding with Christians against those who persecute them (as the Chinese Communist government is clearly doing)!

And it wasn't just some neutral thing you were siding with the Chines government on, but in their[i] directly hindering the spread of the Gospel[/i]!

As for your statement that "Communism, provided you can find an uncorruptable leader, is the best form of government," I have no idea where you got that idea!
Again, it certainly didn't come from Catholic teaching!
In fact, no system of rule has been so forcefully and thoroughly condemned by the Church as Communism.
In the encylical [url="http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius11/P11QUADR.HTM"]QUADRAGESIMO ANNO[/url], Pope Pius XI condemns not only Communism, but "moderate" forms of socialism as well. Pope Pius says this about Communism:[quote]Communism teaches and seeks two objectives: Unrelenting class warfare and absolute extermination of private ownership. Not secretly or by hidden methods does it do this, but publicly, openly, and by employing every and all means, even the most violent. To achieve these objectives there is nothing which it does not dare, nothing for which it has respect or reverence; and when it has come to power, it is incredible and portentlike in its cruelty and inhumanity. The horrible slaughter and destruction through which it has laid waste vast regions of eastern Europe and Asia are the evidence; how much an enemy and how openly hostile it is to Holy Church and to God Himself is, alas, too well proved by facts and fully known to all. Although We, therefore, deem it superfluous to warn upright and faithful children of the Church regarding the impious and iniquitous character of Communism, yet We cannot without deep sorrow contemplate the heedlessness of those who apparently make light of these impending dangers, and with sluggish inertia allow the widespread propagation of doctrine which seeks by violence and slaughter to destroy society altogether. All the more gravely to be condemned is the folly of those who neglect to remove or change the conditions that inflame the minds of peoples, and pave the way for the overthrow and destruction of society.[/quote]
The principles of Communism itself are wrong, period, whether or not an "uncorruptable" leader can be found.
(See [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=80497&st=0"]this thread concerning the Church's condemnation of socialism[/url])

The history of Communism is one of every type of murderous atrocity, oppression, and tyranny, and Communism has always been one of the greatest enemies of the Church.
I'm sorry, but it appears you have a lot of learning to do on this topic.

[Socrates]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1633702' date='Aug 21 2008, 02:16 PM']I would not saying communism is the worst form of government. Dictatorship, Tolitarianism are much, much worse than communism.[/quote]
Communism is a form of totalitarian dictatorship.
Most of history's most bloodthirsty dictators have been Communist leaders: Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Kim Il-sung, etc.

Through its history of less than a century, Communism has been responsible for the murders of over 100,000,000 people worldwide.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Farsight one' post='1633765' date='Aug 21 2008, 04:07 PM']Pardon, but communism does not outright reject God. Communism has the religious beliefs of those in charge, which for the most part has so far meant non-theistic regimes. Dictionary.com defines it as this:

1. a theory or system of social organization based on the holding of all property in common, actual ownership being ascribed to the community as a whole or to the state.
2. (often initial capital letter) a system of social organization in which all economic and social activity is controlled by a totalitarian state dominated by a single and self-perpetuating political party.
3. (initial capital letter) the principles and practices of the Communist party.

I've never seen religion being forbidden by default on Communism - that's just the way it's happened to be so far.

As an aside - I don't understand quite how the Vatican works, but doesn't the pope have total control over it's laws, finances, etc? Sure, he delegates the responsibilities to others, but he still has final say. Doesn't that make the Vatican government somewhat Communistic? Or at least a dictatorship? Not that a 900 person country really counts in this regard...[/quote]
The Vatican is most certainly not a Communist state, and has repeatedly and forcefully condemned Communism. The Pope does not exercise totalitarian control over the property of others or economic activity.
It seems you understand neither the role of the Pope, nor of the Communist state.

Communism is based on the principles of Karl Marx and Vladimir Lenin, which were vehemently and militantly atheistic and anti-religious. All Communist states are officially atheist, and persecute Christians to varying degrees.

[Farsight one]

You guys are overreacting. It was innocent speculation. Geez. Speak one dissenting opinion - even in jest - in this place, and get jumped on by half a dozen people. (who, btw, never bothered to answer the question).

You guys need to seriously take a step back, take a few deep breaths, and read it all again without letting your emotions control you. I've been blatantly insulted one too many times in this topic - even after I admitted I was wrong. And guess what? The mods have done nothing. Hmm...that reminds me of something...

who wants to guess what it reminds me of?

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Farsight one' post='1634065' date='Aug 21 2008, 08:17 PM']You guys need to seriously take a step back, take a few deep breaths, and read it all again without letting your emotions control you. I've been blatantly insulted one too many times in this topic - even after I admitted I was wrong. And guess what? The mods have done nothing. Hmm...that reminds me of something...

who wants to guess what it reminds me of? [/quote]
+J.M.J.+
the mods aren't mind readers. if you think someone has stepped over the line, then guess what? there's this handy dandy 'report' button by each person's post. and if you click on it, you can report on what you think the offensive content is. thanks.

[Justin86]

The reason why every communist state has rejected God is because it is a philosophy that sees religion as the basis for the justification to own private property. Obviously dictionaries aren't going to go that in depth with it as their purpose is to provide only basic rudimentary definitions of their subject. However, a clear study of Marx, Stalin, Lenin, and basically the entire foundations of Soviet Union clearly shows this as their point of view.

In that segment of their philosophy they would be accurate, at least in regards to the Catholic Church. I believe it is part of Catholic social teaching that everyone does deserve to own some form of private property no matter how small. If we are meant to be stewards of God's creation, meaning we are called to co-operate with God's plan for His creation, then it would make sense that every individual be in charge of something, no matter how small in order to fulfill this call. Distributism is based on this idea, however it runs into problems in that exactly how to get there is widely disputed at best, if not entirely impossible to actually reach. It is for that reason why capitalism is the best economic philosophy in existence right now in my opinion.

Edited August 22, 2008 by Justin86

[Justin86]

[quote name='Farsight one' post='1634065' date='Aug 22 2008, 11:17 AM']You guys are overreacting. It was innocent speculation. Geez. Speak one dissenting opinion - even in jest - in this place, and get jumped on by half a dozen people. (who, btw, never bothered to answer the question). [/quote]
Did you mean this in jest?

[quote]I'm curious as to what some of these differences are.[/quote]

Really? The fact that they feel compelled to set up their own state religion to compete against ours isn't enough to clue you in that they persecute Catholicism? You did figure out that Rome condemns this quazi-state church, right?

[quote]You guys need to seriously take a step back, take a few deep breaths, and read it all again without letting your emotions control you. I've been blatantly insulted one too many times in this topic - even after I admitted I was wrong. And guess what? The mods have done nothing. Hmm...that reminds me of something...[/quote]
No one here ever attacked you personally. You made a ridiculous comment saying that Chinese persecution of Christians was justified. You're comments were treated exactly as they should've been.

[quote]who wants to guess what it reminds me of? [/quote]
I don't know what's running through your mind, but in mine all I can think of is "authentic Catholicism".

[Justin86]

[quote name='Farsight one' post='1633110' date='Aug 21 2008, 08:53 AM']I'm glad you do. Most people, however, do not think that way.[/quote]
I find this comment most disturbing in that you seem to be sympathizing with fascism here. While I am offended by street corner proselytizing, I am also offended by Michael Moore, Jesse Jackson, and Louis Farrakhan. I don't support the government outlawing anyone's freedom of speech that does not incite violence and I don' think most Americans do.

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='Farsight one' post='1634065' date='Aug 21 2008, 10:17 PM']You guys are overreacting. It was innocent speculation. Geez. Speak one dissenting opinion - even in jest - in this place, and get jumped on by half a dozen people. (who, btw, never bothered to answer the question).

You guys need to seriously take a step back, take a few deep breaths, and read it all again without letting your emotions control you. I've been blatantly insulted one too many times in this topic - even after I admitted I was wrong. And guess what? The mods have done nothing. Hmm...that reminds me of something...

who wants to guess what it reminds me of? [/quote]


[quote name='Lil Red' post='1634091' date='Aug 21 2008, 10:34 PM']+J.M.J.+
the mods aren't mind readers. if you think someone has stepped over the line, then guess what? there's this handy dandy 'report' button by each person's post. and if you click on it, you can report on what you think the offensive content is. thanks.[/quote]


I'm not sure if you think we have the phorum bugged, video cameras in every thread and hired children to rat on guideline violators, but we don't. As omnipresent as the mods seem, we aren't everywhere. Even if we post in a thread does not mean that we've read every post in the thread.

Hit REPORT.

[Farsight one]

[quote name='Justin86' post='1634420' date='Aug 22 2008, 05:08 AM']Really? The fact that they feel compelled to set up their own state religion to compete against ours isn't enough to clue you in that they persecute Catholicism? You did figure out that Rome condemns this quazi-state church, right?[/quote]And did I know they were doing that at the time I said it? Do I know the differences between the state run version and the real version(no)?


[quote]No one here ever attacked you personally. You made a ridiculous comment saying that Chinese persecution of Christians was justified. You're comments were treated exactly as they should've been.[/quote]No. You very much misunderstand me. I don't think Chinese persecution of Christians is justified. I don't think persecution of anyone is justified. But at the time, I didn't think it was persecution. I saw it as Christians sinning by breaking laws. If I had held your beliefs at the time I said it, yes. It would have been ridiculous. But working with what little I actually knew, it was a perfectly logical statement.


[quote]I don't know what's running through your mind, but in mine all I can think of is "authentic Catholicism".[/quote]Communism. Communism was what's running through my mind.

[quote name='Justin86' post='1634421' date='Aug 22 2008, 05:12 AM']I find this comment most disturbing in that you seem to be sympathizing with fascism here. While I am offended by street corner proselytizing, I am also offended by Michael Moore, Jesse Jackson, and Louis Farrakhan. I don't support the government outlawing anyone's freedom of speech that does not incite violence and I don' think most Americans do.[/quote]I might potentially do that, but never for the simple fact that it is fascism. Your mentality here seems to be that simply because it is fascism or communism, it must be wrong in every way possible. This is not true. Abortion is legal in America. If, hypothetically, it was illegal in China, then I would side with China on that issue. And that's what I was saying - that I'm glad he(she?) was siding with the Christians because he(she?) felt that the Christians were in the right, and not solely because they were Christians.

If you side with someone simply because they are a fellow Christian or phatmasser, or football fan, or friend or family, then you have found a poor motivation to take a side. "Stand up for what is right, even if you stand alone" - you know. That kind of thing?

[quote name='homeschoolmom' post='1634448' date='Aug 22 2008, 08:11 AM']I'm not sure if you think we have the phorum bugged, video cameras in every thread and hired children to rat on guideline violators, but we don't. As omnipresent as the mods seem, we aren't everywhere. Even if we post in a thread does not mean that we've read every post in the thread.

Hit REPORT.[/quote]I saw mods posting. I just figured that they were reading everything as well.