China Confiscates Bibles From American Christians

[Justin86]

[quote name='Farsight one' post='1631439' date='Aug 19 2008, 06:40 PM']True. But there are ways to spread the word in China without breaking their laws. Lead by example for one. Tell anyone who asks about God. Even identify yourself as a Christian by the shirt you wear(this might actually be illegal too. I don't know) in hopes that someone will stop to ask you about it. Anonymously placing bibles on front porches and standing on a street corner preaching and handing them out can be done without.[/quote]
None of those things you mentioned would be legal in China. Catholicism is outlawed entirely in that country.

[Farsight one]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1632190' date='Aug 19 2008, 09:31 PM']All but one of Christ's Apostles died martyrs' deaths, as did countless other martyrs around the world through the centuries, for preaching the Gospel against the will of the secular authorities. I suggest you start by reading the Acts of the Apostles before you spout more of this drivel.
And note that these martyrs preached the Gospel openly and fearlessly - they were not content to merely give good example in their lives or tell people about God who ask them in private.

I'm afraid the Church would not have spread to all ends of the earth (or spread far at all, for that matter) if the apostles of old were to follow the advice of modern pc Catholics like "Farsight."[/quote]And acting condescending and saying insulting things does spread God's word? There's something in the bible about splinters and logs in eyes. You should read that sometime. Perhaps I was mistaken, but that's not a valid reason to talk to me like I'm "beneath" you. If you think I am some "modern pc Catholic", then you have absolutely no idea what kind of person I am.

[quote name='Justin86' post='1632478' date='Aug 20 2008, 05:44 AM']None of those things you mentioned would be legal in China. Catholicism is outlawed entirely in that country.[/quote]Catholicism is not outlawed entirely in China. I think you're vastly overstating their laws. Perhaps outward expression of faith is currently illegal. But last I checked, there are no laws against being Christian, nor telling others about Christianity [i]if they ask[/i].

[Justin86]

[quote name='Farsight one' post='1632489' date='Aug 20 2008, 08:21 PM']And acting condescending and saying insulting things does spread God's word?[/quote]
Oh please, all these people did was bring in Bibles. You have no evidence they were going to go preaching on the street corners with them, and yet you automatically assume they were. I think maybe [i]you're[/i] the one that needs to read that plank-in-your-eye quote from the Bible, and take it to heart.

[quote]Catholicism is not outlawed entirely in China. I think you're vastly overstating their laws. Perhaps outward expression of faith is currently illegal. But last I checked, there are no laws against being Christian, nor telling others about Christianity [i]if they ask[/i].[/quote]
You can't even attend a valid Catholic Mass in China. The only "mass" that is allowed comes from China's state sponsored, bastardized, version of the Catholic Church. Authentic Catholicism is in no way legal in China. Why, therefore, would it be legal to talk about if someone asks you?

[Farsight one]

[quote name='Justin86' post='1632514' date='Aug 20 2008, 08:54 AM']Oh please, all these people did was bring in Bibles. You have no evidence they were going to go preaching on the street corners with them, and yet you automatically assume they were. I think maybe [i]you're[/i] the one that needs to read that plank-in-your-eye quote from the Bible, and take it to heart.[/quote]If the group of people was 300 large, I'd certainly believe that the bibles were for personal use. But look at the facts here. There were 4 American citizens trying to bring in over 300 bibles written in Chinese. It's unlikely that they could even read Chinese. What, pray tell, would they have used those bibles for if not to street preach and/or try to hand them out to passersby? It's usually not good to "judge a book by it's cover", but sometimes the cover makes the contents pretty darn obvious. It's the only logical conclusion.

I know you want the Catholic Church to spread to the four corners of the earth(I do too!) and you're frustrated that Chinese laws make it hard, but don't let your frustration keep you from seeing something that would be blatantly obvious were the situation reversed. Ask yourself what you would be saying if it were 4 Muslims bringing 300 Chinese Korans into the country. I have a feeling you'd say its safe to assume that they were going to try and do something similar.


[quote]You can't even attend a valid Catholic Mass in China. The only "mass" that is allowed comes from China's state sponsored, bastardized, version of the Catholic Church. Authentic Catholicism is in no way legal in China. Why, therefore, would it be legal to talk about if someone asks you?[/quote]I'm curious as to what some of these differences are.

[KnightofChrist]

So what if they were for street preaching? Do we support a unjust and wicked law? No.

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='Farsight one' post='1632868' date='Aug 20 2008, 04:08 PM']If the group of people was 300 large, I'd certainly believe that the bibles were for personal use. But look at the facts here. There were 4 American citizens trying to bring in over 300 bibles written in Chinese. It's unlikely that they could even read Chinese. What, pray tell, would they have used those bibles for if not to street preach and/or try to hand them out to passersby? It's usually not good to "judge a book by it's cover", but sometimes the cover makes the contents pretty darn obvious. It's the only logical conclusion.[/quote]
What if they were smuggling them in to an underground house church. Those are illegal, too. Yet I don't think it's wrong to bring bibles to Christians who want them.

[havok579257]

[quote name='Farsight one' post='1632868' date='Aug 20 2008, 04:08 PM']If the group of people was 300 large, I'd certainly believe that the bibles were for personal use. But look at the facts here. There were 4 American citizens trying to bring in over 300 bibles written in Chinese. It's unlikely that they could even read Chinese. What, pray tell, would they have used those bibles for if not to street preach and/or try to hand them out to passersby? It's usually not good to "judge a book by it's cover", but sometimes the cover makes the contents pretty darn obvious. It's the only logical conclusion.

I know you want the Catholic Church to spread to the four corners of the earth(I do too!) and you're frustrated that Chinese laws make it hard, but don't let your frustration keep you from seeing something that would be blatantly obvious were the situation reversed. Ask yourself what you would be saying if it were 4 Muslims bringing 300 Chinese Korans into the country. I have a feeling you'd say its safe to assume that they were going to try and do something similar.


I'm curious as to what some of these differences are.[/quote]


I don't care what anyone's religion is be it christianity, humanism, buddisahm, Musliem, Jewdeism... everyone has a God given right to spread the word of God through evangilism. I would be just as pissed if it was 300 Koran's being brought in. Its is 100% wrong what China is doing and no one should obey those laws because they go against everything God stands for. Simple as that.

Edited August 20, 2008 by havok579257

[Farsight one]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1632889' date='Aug 20 2008, 04:27 PM']So what if they were for street preaching? Do we support a unjust and wicked law? No.[/quote]Part of my point was that there are other, legal ways to spread the word.


[quote name='homeschoolmom' post='1632956' date='Aug 20 2008, 05:23 PM']What if they were smuggling them in to an underground house church. Those are illegal, too. Yet I don't think it's wrong to bring bibles to Christians who want them.[/quote]That is one alternative I had not thought of. I don't think it's quite as likely as an underground church would probably know better than to smuggle something through checked luggage, but it's certainly a possibility and for that I will back off.


[quote name='havok579257' post='1632961' date='Aug 20 2008, 05:28 PM']I don't care what anyone's religion is be it christianity, humanism, buddisahm, Musliem, Jewdeism... everyone has a God given right to spread the word of God through evangilism. I would be just as pissed if it was 300 Koran's being brought in. Its is 100% wrong what China is doing and no one should obey those laws because they go against everything God stands for. Simple as that.[/quote]I'm glad you do. Most people, however, do not think that way.

[Lil Red]

+J.M.J.+
you guys should read some of the sickening comments from the major newspaper in that area:

[url="http://www.billingsgazette.net/articles/2008/08/18/news/wyoming/28-chinese.txt"]http://www.billingsgazette.net/articles/20.../28-chinese.txt[/url]

like:
[quote]Anyone with any semblence of intelligence would know off the git-go that you don't just take bibles into any country, especially China, without previous permission. These arrogant bible pushers got what they deserved and quite frankly, they should thank their invisible little friend in the sky that they aren't doing their praying in a 4x6 cell. Good call, China![/quote]

and [quote]Beans, those "Bible Thumpers" have also taught their followers intolerance, hatred, "holier than thou" attitudes, pretentious piety, unforgiveness, prudish standards, extreme narrow-mindedness, pushiness, meddlesome behavior such as identified in this news item, and a penchant for waging war on countries that are not necessarily "christian." What else? I'm sure there is much more but what the h@@@, bible thumpers will try to refute it anyhow.[/quote]

and [quote]Why do we have to hold China to our standards? Oh right, we DON'T. Easterners have a different mind set than Westerners. We in the West believe in freedom of choice and to do what we want while in the East believe in the greater good of their society even if it means giving up the freedoms we hold as the most important thing. Is it wrong? Hell no, it's their country to do with what they will. The majority of people over there do not see a problem or they would rise up and overthrow their government, but they don't. If China doesn't feel like distributing the bible, why do we care at all? It's not a human rights violation to keep a book from being distributed among the masses. Beside I will put money on China's society collapsing within the next 10 years. They are already starting to.[/quote]

[Socrates]

[quote name='Farsight one' post='1632489' date='Aug 20 2008, 06:21 AM']And acting condescending and saying insulting things does spread God's word? There's something in the bible about splinters and logs in eyes. You should read that sometime. Perhaps I was mistaken, but that's not a valid reason to talk to me like I'm "beneath" you. If you think I am some "modern pc Catholic", then you have absolutely no idea what kind of person I am.[/quote]
Sorry if I've offended you, but I stand my ground here. I find it disturbing to see those that call themselves Catholic apparently siding with an anti-Christian regime against Christians. You honestly don't seem to know whose side you're on.

[quote]Catholicism is not outlawed entirely in China. I think you're vastly overstating their laws. Perhaps outward expression of faith is currently illegal. But last I checked, there are no laws against being Christian, nor telling others about Christianity [i]if they ask[/i].[/quote]
Any law which rules against outward expression of faith, or spreading the Gospel, is ipso facto an unjust law, and need not be heeded by Christians.
As has been shown, this is a despotic, atheistic, anti-Christian, totalitarian tyranny, which seeks to repress all religion and subordinate it to the atheist state. Such laws do not advance the common good, but strengthen the power of a despotic Communist state.
Such laws violate the law of God as well as human freedom, and cannot be considered in any way just, but are rather, as the Catechism states, a form of violence.

One cannot say that laws are just, and should be obeyed, so long as one is allowed to privately and secretly be Christian (or be allowed to only be part of a government-organized puppet-church).
Time to take a stand for Christ and God's Word, rather than make excuses for the tyranny of a godless regime.

Edited August 21, 2008 by Socrates

[Socrates]

[quote name='Lil Red' post='1633119' date='Aug 20 2008, 07:04 PM']+J.M.J.+
you guys should read some of the sickening comments from the major newspaper in that area:

[url="http://www.billingsgazette.net/articles/2008/08/18/news/wyoming/28-chinese.txt"]http://www.billingsgazette.net/articles/20.../28-chinese.txt[/url]

like:


and

and[/quote]
Ah yes, more of the typical secularist-liberal love and tolerance towards Christians.

All those atheist Lefties ought to be deported to China or North Korea or one of those other glorious People's Worker's Paradises that are so superior to backwards, religiously oppressive America.

Reason #792,546 why I despise liberals.

[Farsight one]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1633210' date='Aug 20 2008, 10:08 PM']Sorry if I've offended you, but I stand my ground here. I find it disturbing to see those that call themselves Catholic apparently siding with an anti-Christian regime against Christians. You honestly don't seem to know whose side you're on.[/quote]Stand your ground on offending me, or stand your ground on the belief that what China is doing is wrong?

As for me - I don't just side with someone simply because they are Christian. Or my friend or my family. I side with who I think is right. Part of our job here on earth is to help each other become better people and thus closer to God. If you just blindly side with the Christians, or your friends, or phorum mates, or whoever in a situation for the simple fact that they are what or who they are, no one learns anything. So I side with who I think is right in each specific case. In this case, I happened to side with the Communist regime. They're not necessarily bad. Communism, provided you can find an uncorruptable leader, is the best form of government. (obviously everyone so far has been corruptable though. And many doubt that a truly uncorruptable person exists.)

I see that I was mistaken now. Consequently, I see that I was mistaken only because none of you were so quick to blindly side with me for whatever reason.

[Justin86]

[quote name='Farsight one' post='1633290' date='Aug 21 2008, 12:46 PM']I see that I was mistaken now. Consequently, I see that I was mistaken only because none of you were so quick to blindly side with me for whatever reason.[/quote]
Perhaps because we don't believe in persecuting our fellow Christians?

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Farsight one' post='1633290' date='Aug 20 2008, 10:46 PM']So I side with who I think is right in each specific case. In this case, I happened to side with the Communist regime. They're not necessarily bad. Communism, provided you can find an uncorruptable leader, is the best form of government. (obviously everyone so far has been corruptable though. And many doubt that a truly uncorruptable person exists.)[/quote]

Communism is condemned by the Church, no matter who the leader would be, it is the worst form of government. And I am sorry but you're selling out your christian brethren and Christ Jesus for a Atheist regime and unjust law which is part of a long line of laws that persecutes Christians.

God have mercy on the persecuted Church in China.

[havok579257]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1633319' date='Aug 21 2008, 12:43 AM']Communism is condemned by the Church, no matter who the leader would be, it is the worst form of government. And I am sorry but you're selling out your christian brethren and Christ Jesus for a Atheist regime and unjust law which is part of a long line of laws that persecutes Christians.

God have mercy on the persecuted Church in China.[/quote]


I would not saying communism is the worst form of government. Dictatorship, Tolitarianism are much, much worse than communism.