Russia Is Not At Peace

[Aloysius]

jeeze, you see provoking words in my post but not in yours? i was just clarifying for goodness sake... you quoted him saying he didn't pay attention to private revelations, and as a response to that you said Fatima had many public things attached to it... I don't know how that can be interpretted other than as a response to him (and he himself took it as such and clarified what he meant by public/private as well)

I find it remarkable that you accused me of trying to provoke an argument out of you... you're the one who first used condescension and caps against me when I merely pointed out public revelation ended with the Apostles.

[dairygirl4u2c]

she's big on caps and shrill attitudes.
but now i'm the one provoking so shows how big i am...

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1631928' date='Aug 19 2008, 04:05 PM']jeeze, you see provoking words in my post but not in yours? i was just clarifying for goodness sake... you quoted him saying he didn't pay attention to private revelations,[/quote]

No, I didn't quote him as saying that, becuase he didn't say that. Maybe if you actually bothered to read and comprehend the posts instead of looking for something to provoke me with, everything would go back to being calm--the way it was before YOU jumped in.

He said we don't have to believe in private revelations. My comment was not as an argument to his statement; it was an addition. And hey guess what? Apotheouon didn't take it as an argument to his statement so I wonder why YOU are.

[Aloysius]

notice Apotheoun responded to you by clarifying what he meant by public/private. w/e though, whatever makes you happy, apparently I'm just provoking you :rollseyes:


note: I did not make this an argument at all... I said public revelation ended with the death of the last Apostle and you proceded to totally create a big deal out of things (come on, look at your response to my totally regular and true comment and tell me again how I'm provoking you)

btw, this is the post you made:
[quote]QUOTE (Apotheoun @ Aug 17 2008, 04:35 PM) *
I do not pay that much attention to private revelations, which by their very nature always remain contingent, while adding nothing substantive to the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.



Well, except that the miracle of Fatima happened publicly, not privately. I mean, there were private parts. But it wasn't all private. The miracle of the sun happened for the whole world to see and even in China the scholars of ancient astronomy couldn't figure out what was happening on that day in 1917.[/quote]


why would you say EXCEPT they happened publicly, when all Apo was talking about was the fact that it was a private revelation? whatever, it doesn't matter to me, it's just that that post is a clear response when Apo says he doesn't pay much attention to private revelations and you say "EXCEPT the miracle happened publicly not privately" well... I feel the need to say "public revelation ended with the Apostles" and Apo feels the need to clarify what he meant by public and private... it's really quite a natural response since you seem to be responding to Apo's use of the word private.

[TotusTuusMaria]

Calm down, guys. It is ok.

Also... you guys are getting just a tiny, little bit.

[TotusTuusMaria]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1631807' date='Aug 19 2008, 03:13 PM']THe Church has stated that Russia was consecrated to Mary, so that is not an issue.
Kindly remember we are dealing in God's time, not mere human time here.
An excellent though long treatise on the Catholic Church is "Trial, Tribulation and Triumph" by Desmond Birch who is a Catholic expert on the subject.[/quote]

Where did the Church state that Russia was consecrated to Mary?

[LouisvilleFan]

And is there any reason we can't accept the fall of Communism as fulfilling the prophecy?

[Aloysius]

because Communism hasn't really fallen for good there... if you haven't noticed current trends... ... and also, "conversion" definitively ought to have a religious context... unless you expect me to believe that the Immaculate Heart will triumph through capitalism... and if you expect me to believe that I'm willing to throw out the whole Fatima thing right now

there is absolutely no religiously Catholic reason that anyone is required to accept the Vatican's position that Russia has already been consecrated... it stands to reason that if Lucia accepted it then you'd need a lot of evidence to the contrary before you could really hold that it didn't fulfill the requirements, but since this is all private revelation, the ONLY thing anyone is required by the Church to do is to accept that it is OK to believe in Fatima as a supplement to the faith... you can believe in it or not believe in it... if you want you're perfectly free to think the Vatican is hiding the fourth secret of Fatima in a secret moon base so long as the only thing you take from Fatima is a re-affirmation of the Divine Truths of the Catholic Faith and do not hinge your faith in the Church on whether it is true or not. no one would be a bad Catholic just for thinking that the consecration was done improperly or didn't fulfill the right stuff or that the third secret didn't mean what Rome thinks it meant (assasination of JPII) or whatever... you'd just be a conspiracy theorist and there is nothing in the Catholic Faith that says you can't be a conspiracy theorist..

[LouisvilleFan]

It hasn't fallen for good, but the Communist Party doesn't control Russia. It's at least democratic in theory and their citizens have the right to private owernship, freedom of religion (although that's questionable if you aren't Russian Orthodox), and other civil rights. It's definitely a work in progress, but a far cry from the days of the Fatima apparition.

As for Fatima, I'm indifferent. I don't see any point in worrying about whether the prophesies are fulfilled or not. There is apparently no way to know for sure, and either way I still have bills to pay.

Edited August 20, 2008 by LouisvilleFan

[Aloysius]

it's a work in progress.... in the other direction currently in my estimation. These days it seems Russia gets more communist, not less, every day.

if anyone does actually believe that Russia was not rightly consecrated, I would recommend that they start believing that the Fatima prophecy failed... because if you think this or any subsequent pope is actually going to go back on all these years of definitively and certainly stating that Russia has been consecrated you're living in a dream world... there would sooner be a pope who mandated that all masses must be done in Klingon in the Roman Rite than you'd get a pope who said "by the way, I don't think Russia was rightly consecrated, let's do it again!"

you pretty much have to say either Russia was consecrated the way they did it, or it's never going to be consecrated and we've failed Our Lady's request.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1632078' date='Aug 19 2008, 07:13 PM']notice Apotheoun responded[/quote]

Get yourself back on-topic. You provoked this argument for NO REASON and that is blatantly obvious. Add something to the topic, why don't you.

[Aloysius]

I have been... but apparently stating that public revelation ended with the Apostles is considered provoking an argument whatever it was (these little spats seem to follow you around phatmass, not me, so perhaps look in the mirror for who starts them) it is over.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1632556' date='Aug 20 2008, 09:29 AM']I have been... but apparently stating that public revelation ended with the Apostles is considered provoking an argument whatever it was (these little spats seem to follow you around phatmass, not me, so perhaps look in the mirror for who starts them) it is over.[/quote]

Repeat: Get back on topic, instead of trying to perpetuate the argument you already provoked in the first place.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1632542' date='Aug 20 2008, 11:11 AM']it's a work in progress.... in the other direction currently in my estimation. These days it seems Russia gets more communist, not less, every day.[/quote]

Yeah, one of my college professors was saying the same thing six or seven years ago. Still, if Mary meant that Communism would lose its grip on Russia, then it's been fulfilled. My question is whether that can be accepted as a valid interpretation, regardless of Russia's current politics?

[LouisvilleFan]

Funny how this thread is about peace...