Russia Is Not At Peace

[kafka]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1630039' date='Aug 17 2008, 07:51 PM']I could be wrong, and I don't think I am, but this talk of "tribulation" is not Catholic. This is for snake-handler protestants down south.[/quote]
the word Tribulation is found many times in Sacred Scripture in context to the suffering of end times as well as one's own personal suffering. Tribulation comes from the root Latin word tribulum meaning threshing sledge. In the past, a single man would beat a pile of harvested grain with a flail in order to separate the chaff from grain. This is a useful metaphor for the sufferings mankind will endure during the end times. There is no problem using this word in a Catholic context and understanding.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='kafka' post='1630051' date='Aug 17 2008, 08:01 PM']the word Tribulation is found many times in Sacred Scripture in context to the suffering of end times as well as one's own personal suffering. Tribulation comes from the root Latin word tribulum meaning threshing sledge. In the past, a single man would beat a pile of harvested grain with a flail in order to separate the chaff from grain. This is a useful metaphor for the sufferings mankind will endure during the end times. There is no problem using this word in a Catholic context and understanding.[/quote]


But protestants have a theology of an actual world-wide Tribulation that will be inflicted upon all people. No one is questioning the casual use of the word to mean personal trials and difficulties.

[kafka]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1630058' date='Aug 17 2008, 08:07 PM']But protestants have a theology of an actual world-wide Tribulation that will be inflicted upon all people. No one is questioning the casual use of the word to mean personal trials and difficulties.[/quote]
some of the sufferings of the end times will affect all the inhabitants of the earth, so the Protestants are partially correct in that particular point. Of course there are errors in many aspects of their Eschatology.

[TotusTuusMaria]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1630042' date='Aug 17 2008, 07:52 PM']Why? It has nothing to do with our Great Religion.[/quote]

I just want to hear him out.

[TotusTuusMaria]

[quote name='kafka' post='1629923' date='Aug 17 2008, 05:28 PM']Here is a basic outline of it, but there is so much more found in Scripture:

From the book of Daniel

{7:2} I saw in my vision at night, and behold, the four winds of the heavens fought upon the great sea.

~ this is a vision Daniel recieved about the future times during the tribulation. The four winds represent the four directions east west, north south, and the great sea represents the inhabitants of the earth, since all will be affected in some way by the Tribulation

{7:3} And four great beasts, different from one another, ascended from the sea.

~ the four beasts are the four major kingdoms one after the other leading up to the reign of Antichrist and the Second Coming of Jesus.

{7:4} The first was like a lioness and had the wings of an eagle. I watched as its wings were plucked off, and it was raised from the earth and stood on its feet like a man, and the heart of a man was given to it.

~ the first kingdom (lioness with wings of an eagle) is an alliance of nations with at least one nation led by a woman (hence its female gender). The lion is a symbol of the Great Catholic of Prophecy, the wings represent the U.S. and her Air Force. Wings plucked off is the ending of the alliance of the U.S. and the kingdom of the Great Monarch which occurs after WWIV. Then the lion is transformed from a beast into a man meaning that the kingdom of the Great Monarch will be guided by reason and love.

{7:5} And behold, another beast, like a bear, stood to one side, and there were three rows in its mouth and in its teeth, and they spoke to it in this way: “Arise, devour much flesh.”

~ the bear represents Russia of the 2100s (the one mentioned by the BVM at Fatima). After the era of the Great Monarch Russia will rise up. The three rows of the mouth represent three branches of government and three rows of teeth: three branches of military. Devour much flesh, means they will subdue many kingdoms and slaughter many peoples.

{7:6} After this, I watched, and behold, another like a leopard, and it had wings like a bird, four upon it, and four heads were on the beast, and power was given to it.

~ the leopard represents an enormous kingdom centered somewhere in Asia including India and China during the 2200s.

{7:7} After this, I watched in the vision of the night, and behold, a fourth beast, terrible yet wondrous, and exceedingly strong; it had great iron teeth, eating yet crushing, and trampling down the remainder with his feet, but it was unlike the other beasts, which I had seen before it, and it had ten horns.

~ notice the fourth beast (terrible yet wonderous) is the greatest of the four. It will rise up and utterly subdue most of the peoples of the earth, and their nations, and their cultures. The result will be one world wide kingdom with ten kings, represented by the horns, ruling over most of the earth. This will be a time of enormous error, false worship, hedonism, etc. The true Church will dwindle. This is during the 2300s and paves the way for the rise of Antichrist.

{7:8} I considered the horns, and behold, another little horn rose out of the midst of them. And three of the first horns were rooted out by its presence. And behold, eyes like the eyes of a man were in this horn, and a mouth speaking unnatural things.

~ the little horn is Antichrist. He first takes one of the ten kingdoms (the North kingdom of Europe). Then he takes three more and by then the other six will be forced to give up their kingdoms to him because of the enormous military might he will have amassed by taking the three.[/quote]

Thanks for posting all of that.

Where does all of this come from? I mean, the dates and everything. It seems like everything is quite laid out and you know when all of this is going to happen and so forth. However, I thought the Church didn't put dates to these kinds of things. It was more of a "we don't know; Be prepared for Christ to come tomorrow and be prepared for your own judgement at death" kind of thing. So, where have you come up with this? How do you know the Russia Our Lady spoke of it the Russia in 2300?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1630034' date='Aug 17 2008, 05:49 PM']Well, except that the miracle of Fatima happened publicly, not privately. I mean, there were private parts. But it wasn't all private. The miracle of the sun happened for the whole world to see and even in China the scholars of ancient astronomy couldn't figure out what was happening on that day in 1917.[/quote]
Even that "public" event is an aspect of the private revelations given at Fatima.

Now, I am using the terms "public" and "private" in a technical manner. Thus, when I speak of public revelation I am talking about the deposit of faith, and -- of course -- no new public revelation (and in this sense I mean "binding" revelation) is to be given until the Parousia itself occurs at the end of time. Private revelations, on the other hand, are revelations given to individuals, and these revelations are not binding upon anyone, nor do they add anything to the content of the faith. Finally, in connection with these theological distinctions, all Catholics are required to make an assent of divine and catholic faith to public revelation (i.e., scripture and tradition), while an act of human faith alone is all that can be given (although no one is required to give it) to private revelations.

Edited August 18, 2008 by Apotheoun

[Aloysius]

all public revelation ended with the death of the last Apostle.

[Maggyie]

No, the Church does not attach precise dates to anything regarding the Second Coming. There is a small cottage industry that does, which caters to the (unfortunate) appetite people have for that kind of stuff.

Almost every generation in the Church has believed that it was living in the last days, including that of the Apostles.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='Maggie' post='1631581' date='Aug 19 2008, 10:55 AM']Almost every generation in the Church has believed that it was living in the last days, including that of the Apostles.[/quote]


Eventually, some generation is going to be right.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1631542' date='Aug 19 2008, 10:15 AM']all public revelation ended with the death of the last Apostle.[/quote]


No one said it didn't. We are discussing PRIVATE revelation and PUBLIC miracles.

[Aloysius]

yes, and you responded to Apo when he said he didn't pay attention to PRIVATE revelation by saying Fatima happened PUBLICLY. sure, the miracle happened in Public, as have many miracles throughout the Church's history... but the whole of the message is private revelation so I don't see any relevance to you responding to Apo's comment about not paying attention to the private revelation message by informing him that the miracle happened in public view.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1630034' date='Aug 17 2008, 08:49 PM']Well, except that the miracle of Fatima happened publicly, not privately. I mean, there were private parts.[/quote]

hehe... you said private parts.

But in all seriousness, the thing I've heard about this is that Pope John Paul II has the whole world consecrated to Mary instead of only Russia, thus her request was not made as she directed, so the promise won't be fulfilled.

Of course, consecration is no magic potion, so I'm not sure thate even under the scenario that Russia and only Russia was consecrated to Mary that the country would no longer be involved in wars. That's a bit unrealistic in a fallen world. However, isn't is possible that the consecration was made through consecrating the world and that the promise was fulfilled by the fall of Communism's control over Russia? Or maybe Russia was meant as a metaphor for something else?

Quite possibly the only two people who knew the definite answers to these questions about Fatima were Sr. Lucia and Pope John Paul II, so unless you want to pull a Saul and have an Episcopalian priestess call up their spirits, we have to be satisfied with not knowing the answers.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='mortify' post='1630014' date='Aug 17 2008, 08:35 PM']Because Russia was not consecrated as our Lady directed.[/quote]
THe Church has stated that Russia was consecrated to Mary, so that is not an issue.
Kindly remember we are dealing in God's time, not mere human time here.
An excellent though long treatise on the Catholic Church is "Trial, Tribulation and Triumph" by Desmond Birch who is a Catholic expert on the subject.

[dairygirl4u2c]

[url="http://mnweekly.rian.ru/local/20080606/55332043.html"]http://mnweekly.rian.ru/local/20080606/55332043.html[/url]

one prophet who says russia will experience peace. it's unrelatd to the fatima claim, so in that regard, it's at least an independant source.

it looks ultimately to be chaulk full of nationalism though, so prolly a little slanted, bias etc.
plus you know how prophecies go...

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1631644' date='Aug 19 2008, 12:55 PM']yes, and you responded to Apo when he said he didn't pay attention to PRIVATE revelation by saying Fatima happened PUBLICLY. sure, the miracle happened in Public, as have many miracles throughout the Church's history... but the whole of the message is private revelation so I don't see any relevance to you responding to Apo's comment about not paying attention to the private revelation message by informing him that the miracle happened in public view.[/quote]

I didn't argue with Apotheoun that the Fatima revelation was PRIVATE. I only said the MIRACLE OF THE SUN was public. I only wanted to point out that Fatima was unique in this way. It's called CONVERSATION. What are you, the word police? Don't even start provoking people who have not provoked you. No one has disagreed with anyone else, so you showing up to provoke an argument out of me is rude and unnecesary.