Masturbation Always A Mortal Sin?

[KnightofChrist]

Abortion in that the purpose is to kill a unborn child is always sinful. Performing a surgery to save the live of the mother [b]but is not intended to kill the unborn child[/b] is acceptable to the Church.

That is the difference.

If the intent of the doctor is to kill the child to save the mother that would be sinful. We can not do evil so good may come from it.

Edited August 12, 2008 by KnightofChrist

[lilac_angel]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1624670' date='Aug 11 2008, 07:30 PM']I don;t consider NFP as anything other than a contraceptive which the church is against. To me its the same thing as condoms and the pill. It is just a method you use to purposly avoid pregnancy. I feel like the only reason the church allows it is because of public out cry about contraceptives. To me, NFP is no different than a man pulling out as he is about to ejaculate. If the church said all forms of devices of contraceptives are evil but any method such as the rhythm method and NFP were ok, then I could see your point. Although it just seems like the church picked one contraceptive method and ok'ed that but not other METHODS.[/quote]

People have argued against all of these points before. Your personal choice not to use it is 100% okay! If it doesn't sit well with you or is completely unnecessary in your life, don't use it. NFP is worlds apart from allowing a man to pull out to ejaculate, which is completely unnatural. Obviously if you're not in a grave situation, you would not feel the need to advocate NFP.

[jmjtina]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1624680' date='Aug 11 2008, 06:34 PM']Do you have any medical knowledge at all? Cause making false statements are not good at all. For clarification there are instances where attempted birth will kill the mother or the mother and the child. So you are inncorrect saying its never an issue.[/quote]

Medical Knowledge?

Do you have any Catholic Church knowledge?

Because making those statements as a "catholic" is not good at all.

For clarifications, may I suggest the Catechism? Or better yet, some documents backed up with medical proof?

So while you are incorrect with your statement, which would you prefer? The Catechism or medical knowledge or both?

While you may not be Catholic, (I could be wrong) this is a Catholic forum. And abortion under any circumstance is ALWAYS wrong.

Edited August 12, 2008 by jmjtina

[jmjtina]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1624681' date='Aug 11 2008, 06:35 PM']Abortion in that the purpose is to kill a unborn child is always sinful. Performing a surgery to save the live of the mother [b]but is not intended to kill the unborn child[/b] is acceptable to the Church.

That is the difference.

If the intent of the doctor is to kill the child to save the mother that would be sinful. We can not do evil so good may come from it.[/quote]

The above example that Knight of Christ stated is acceptable due to the fact that it is NOT a direct killing of the child.

The [b]direct killing[/b] of an unborn child is a sin.

But to answer the question, "[u]Is abortion ever acceptable to save the life of the mother[/u]?", [b]the answer is NO.[/b]

Edited August 12, 2008 by jmjtina

[havok579257]

[quote name='jmjtina' post='1624685' date='Aug 11 2008, 08:37 PM']Medical Knowledge?

Do you have any Catholic Church knowledge?

Because making those statements as a "catholic" is not good at all.

For clarifications, may I suggest the Catechism? Or better yet, some documents backed up with medical proof?

So while you are incorrect with your statement, which would you prefer? The Catechism or medical knowledge or both?

While you may not be Catholic, (I could be wrong) this is a Catholic forum. And abortion under any circumstance is ALWAYS wrong.[/quote]


Having church knowledges matters not on this point. That being if there is ever an instance medically that abortion would save the mother. You said that there is NEVER and instance medically where an abortion is needed to save the woman's life. That is where you are wrong. Next time, I advise reading the whole post before jumping to conclusions.

By the way, are you a Catholic also. Thought I would ask since your asking me.

[havok579257]

[quote name='jmjtina' post='1624690' date='Aug 11 2008, 08:41 PM']The above example that Knight of Christ stated is acceptable due to the fact that it is NOT a direct killing of the child.

The [b]direct killing[/b] of an unborn child is a sin.

But to answer the question, "[u]Is abortion ever acceptable to save the life of the mother[/u]?", [b]the answer is NO.[/b][/quote]


Again, please show me documents where it states in the instance of what I was saying, the church advises the mother to die.

[jmjtina]

Again, abortion is defined as a direct killing of a child.

Abortion is never acceptable, even if it means to save the life of the mother.

The example given by Knight of Christ is not an abortion and if you would like to further discuss the issues of that example, we can open another thread.

I asked you if you were Catholic because your statement was not in line with Church teaching. It is usually made by people who are of other faiths. It helps to know where you are coming from because I can talk to you as a Catholic (using the CCC and other Catholic resources) or I can talk to you as an atheist and keep it totally medical.

Either way, I wish to discuss this the best way possible. That is why I asked if you were Catholic.

[quote]2270 Human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception. From the first moment of his existence, a human being must be recognized as having the rights of a person -- among which is the inviolable right of every innocent being to life.(71)

2271 Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law:

You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish .(74)

God, the Lord of life, has entrusted to men the noble mission of safeguarding life, and men must carry it out in a manner worthy of themselves. Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception: abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.(75)[/quote]

Edited August 12, 2008 by jmjtina

[havok579257]

[quote name='jmjtina' post='1624716' date='Aug 11 2008, 09:00 PM']Again, abortion is defined as a direct killing of a child.

Abortion is never acceptable, even if it means to save the life of the mother.

The example given by Knight of Christ is not an abortion and if you would like to further discuss the issues of that example, we can open another thread.

I asked you if you were Catholic because your statement was not in line with Church teaching. It is usually made by people who are of other faiths. It helps to know where you are coming from because I can talk to you as a Catholic (using the CCC and other Catholic resources) or I can talk to you as an atheist and keep it totally medical.

Either way, I wish to discuss this the best way possible. That is why I asked if you were Catholic.[/quote]


You guys are telling me the church teaches one thing. So all I ask is for proof to where the church says that if the mother has an abortion to save her life, she is committing a mortal sin and in this instance the church's stance is for the mother to die. Documents please.


That article does not seem to address what I am talking about. That seems to be just talking about abortion for abortion purposes. Where as I am talking about an instance where childborth will kill a mother. Where does it say the mother is to accept her fate and await her death?

Edited August 12, 2008 by havok579257

[jmjtina]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1624723' date='Aug 11 2008, 07:04 PM']You guys are telling me the church teaches one thing. So all I ask is for proof to where the church says that if the mother has an abortion to save her life, she is committing a mortal sin and in this instance the church's stance is for the mother to die. Documents please.[/quote]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1624710' date='Aug 11 2008, 06:55 PM']Again, please show me documents where it states in the instance of what I was saying, the church advises the mother to die.[/quote]

The Church doesn't advise the mothers to die. The Church states (as above by the CCC I quoted) that never may the direct killing of a child be allowed. Never can the ends justify the means.

It is why we have St. Gianna Molla as the patron saints of mothers. Her only option was to abort her child to save her own life and she chose to lose her life for the sake of her child.

Edited August 12, 2008 by jmjtina

[havok579257]

[quote name='jmjtina' post='1624739' date='Aug 11 2008, 09:11 PM']The Church doesn't advise the mothers to die. The Church states (as above by the CCC I quoted) that never may the direct killing of a child be allowed. Never can the ends doesn't justify the means.

It is why we have St. Gianna Molla as the patron saints of mothers. Her only option was to abort her child to save her own life and she chose to lose her life for the sake of her child.[/quote]


I understand that it is the right thing to do in thi instance but I don't see where the church tells the mother she HAS to die in this instance.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1624742' date='Aug 11 2008, 08:13 PM']I understand that it is the right thing to do in thi instance but I don't see where the church tells the mother she HAS to die in this instance.[/quote]

I'm not sure you do understand. Directly killing a child for the purpose of killing child is always sinful. We may never do evil so good can come from it. As I stated before the doctor can perform a surgery intent on saving the mothers life, but not intent on killing the child.

[jmjtina]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1624742' date='Aug 11 2008, 07:13 PM']I understand that it is the right thing to do in thi instance but I don't see where the church tells the mother she HAS to die in this instance.[/quote]

The Church gives the mother free will.

If she opts for an abortion, knowing full well (again, she has to know she is making a grave sin for it to be a grave sin) she is committing a sin.

Fr. Frank Pavone is the director of [url="http://priestsforlife.org/"]Priests for life:[/url]

[quote]This is not to say that a baby’s life is more important than the mother’s. They are equal. However, the Church states that we may never [b]directly kill either one of them[/b]. If, in spite of the best medical efforts, one or both of them die, nothing morally wrong has been done. That is far different from killing.[/quote]

Remember, it is direct killing that is the sin. Knight of Christ displayed an example that was not a direct killing and would be morally permissable.

Where is Al when I need him?

[havok579257]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1624763' date='Aug 11 2008, 09:22 PM']I'm not sure you do understand. Directly killing a child for the purpose of killing child is always sinful. We may never do evil so good can come from it. As I stated before the doctor can perform a surgery intent on saving the mothers life, but not intent on killing the child.[/quote]


Well actually we can kill if its to save someone else or in war.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1624768' date='Aug 11 2008, 08:25 PM']Well actually we can kill if its to save someone else or in war.[/quote]

When another is intent on killing you yes, but the child is competently innocent of any intent of killing the mother.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1624370' date='Aug 11 2008, 05:38 PM']Well considering this is a DEBATE board which deals in many hypotheticals, that's what I gave. I personally don't know if their is a case or not, I am not going to be bothered to spend hours searching for it. Also the courts do have the right to violate someone's religious beliefs if they deem the belief to be counteractive to fair justice. Cause people could and have tried everything saying its against their religion to give blood samples, urine samples, DNA samples and so on and so on. It all depends on what the law deems acceptable religious beliefs and if its counteractive to fair justice.[/quote]

Which is pretty much my point. It's such an odd and unusual situation. There's no point in us discussing scenarios we aren't knowledgeable about. It would have to be addressed on an individual basis.

[quote name='MissyP89' post='1624442' date='Aug 11 2008, 06:35 PM']While I don't disagree with you, Prose, I have known priests to say that younger people are less culpable. And just a reminder, women aren't immune to these sins. [/quote]

As another reminder, using one's lack of culpability as an excuse to commit sin is a sin, and almost certainly an even greater sin than simply being culpable.

[quote name='havok579257' post='1624516' date='Aug 11 2008, 07:23 PM']I think NFP is abused by people and it is a form of contraceptive in my eyes. Its another form of using a method to avoid children. I would have no problem with NFP if the church didn't say everytime we have sex, we need to be open to life. Avoiding sex just for the sole purpose of avoiding the possibility of childbirth is a contraceptive in my eyes.[/quote]

I'm curious... do you believe you are disagreeing with the Church? Besides your opinion that NFP is just another form of contraception, which depends on the mindset with which it's used, you couldn't be more spot on.

You're right that NFP is abused by some people and used with a contraceptive mindset. Also, avoiding sex for the sole purpose of preventing pregnancy is also gravely sinful because that too is adopting a contraceptive mindset. When a married couple abstains from sex -- and just like when we abstain or fast for anything good -- we must always be intentional about giving God glory. Fasting and prayer work together. One without the other is either anorexia or comfortable Christianity. As St. Paul wrote, it is good for married couples to abstain from sex for a season of prayer. Thus, they express thanksgiving to God as the source of their marriage and the giver of life. Abstaining also gives couples great opportunities to be creative in loving and serving each other the many non-sexual ways... it's like dating all over again (assuming they were abstinent while dating).

But, to abstain simply for avoiding childbirth... that's empty, vain, and ugly... and it's basically saying that your spouse is only good for making babies. That's the sin of the 19th century, which bore the fruit of Planned Parenthood, contraception, and legalized abortion in the 20th century.