Affirmative Action

[picchick]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1630558' date='Aug 18 2008, 01:25 PM']Yeah, like the Irish.


The biggest problem for lower classes in America continues to be themselves. No, they might not be rich, but I experience firsthand what they do to their own neighborhoods, families and the things handed out by the government. Not to mention what the younger generations do to the property their parents worked hard to obtain.

When activists become more interested in solving the problem rather than using it to further their celebrity, then perhaps they will make a difference. But the real difference will be when the communities themselves decide to do the best they can with what they've got.[/quote]

Agreed.

We cannot help people who do not want to help themselves. Of course this is not always the case and there are people who pull through.

My friend recently got married to someone who immigrated from Mexico. He came with only the shirt off his back. He didn't get any handouts. But he worked hard to get to where he is today: a citizen, an education, a job, everything.

Meg

[MissScripture]

[quote name='picchick' post='1630613' date='Aug 18 2008, 01:36 PM']Agreed.

We cannot help people who do not want to help themselves. Of course this is not always the case and there are people who pull through.

My friend recently got married to someone who immigrated from Mexico. He came with only the shirt off his back. He didn't get any handouts. But he worked hard to get to where he is today: a citizen, an education, a job, everything.

Meg[/quote]
Agreed! That's pretty much the story of my grandparents. While they didn't have skin color against them; they didn't speak the language when they came, they had only the clothes on their back and knew no one but their family. I *think* my grandpa may have had $1.75 in his pocket, and my grandma's family had about $5.00 between the five of them. You would never believe it, by looking at what they have now.

I will say, I think it was probably easier back then to build yourself up from nothing without a higher education, but I don't think it's impossible.

[Socrates]

Ditto to most of the above posts . . .

Many "white" immigrants to this country in the past (Irish, Italian, Jewish, etc.) actually often came here with nothing, and faced tougher obstacles than those of most of today's blacks, yet were able to rise above hardship and into success without benefit of special aid from the government. The same is true of many Asian and other immigrants today, who will willingly endure very stringent living situations in order save and invest in a business and find success.

In the past, Americans, white and black, struggled to overcome serious adversary by their own hard work. Today, people look to government to solve their problems and do their work for them. Dependence on government programs and an attitude of blaming others, rather than fixing one's own problems, kills the human spirit.

[Nihil Obstat]

I'm glad to hear these things.
Sometimes the media almost succeeds in making me think that racial minorities are still being discriminated against because of race, not class.
Maybe the core of this is education? Almost always is, right?

[picchick]

Racism still exists. Discrimination against races still happens. Do not get me wrong. It still does exist. However, I do not think that afirmative action will help this.


I do not think that I can answer your question because I think that racism and discrimination still exist.

I think tha racism is something that someone is brought up in mostly. I think that it can certainly develop individually even if you were brought up in a home where racism was not acceptable. But I think that racism develops as a person is brought up.

Edited August 19, 2008 by picchick

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='picchick' post='1631394' date='Aug 19 2008, 12:47 AM']Racism still exists. Discrimination against races still happens. Do not get me wrong. It still does exist. However, I do not think that afirmative action will help this.[/quote]
Oh, yes, of course it still exists. I meant... well you know what I meant, I think.
It's not... some all pervasive force within the education system and workforce that's holding back racial minorities.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1631255' date='Aug 18 2008, 10:10 PM']Ditto to most of the above posts . . .

Many "white" immigrants to this country in the past (Irish, Italian, Jewish, etc.) actually often came here with nothing, and faced tougher obstacles than those of most of today's blacks, yet were able to rise above hardship and into success without benefit of special aid from the government. The same is true of many Asian and other immigrants today, who will willingly endure very stringent living situations in order save and invest in a business and find success.

In the past, Americans, white and black, struggled to overcome serious adversary by their own hard work. Today, people look to government to solve their problems and do their work for them. Dependence on government programs and an attitude of blaming others, rather than fixing one's own problems, kills the human spirit.[/quote]

Word to all that.

And further thoughts...

Despite Affirmative Action, despite numerous types of scholarships, despite numerous opportunities for success, various hand-outs and so forth, STILL the highest number of Americans on welfare are Blacks. The highest rate of crimes are committed by Blacks. The highest rate of high-school drop outs are Blacks. The hightest rate of teen pregnancy and out-of-wedlock pregnancy are among blacks. The highest rate of living below the poverty level is among Blacks. The highest number of men behind prison bars are among Blacks. The highest rate of AIDS is among Blacks. Why is this? Why is this when the civil rights movement brought so many opportunities for them? Why are they STILL waiting for politicians to save them? Why are they still complaining of racism and unfair advantages when the truth is they have ALL the advantanges? Affirmative Action was not created for non-whites. It was created for BLACKS. I can't understand it. A foreigner who comes to America with barely any English skills and no education will become a doctor. But a black American born and raised in America with free education and scholarships for college may end up in prison by age 19. It's a a tragedy this country has not dealt with and can't deal with anyway because when someone tries to address the problem they are called racist.

[picchick]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1631445' date='Aug 19 2008, 07:01 AM']Word to all that.

And further thoughts...

Despite Affirmative Action, despite numerous types of scholarships, despite numerous opportunities for success, various hand-outs and so forth, STILL the highest number of Americans on welfare are Blacks. The highest rate of crimes are committed by Blacks. The highest rate of high-school drop outs are Blacks. The hightest rate of teen pregnancy and out-of-wedlock pregnancy are among blacks. The highest rate of living below the poverty level is among Blacks. The highest number of men behind prison bars are among Blacks. The highest rate of AIDS is among Blacks. Why is this? Why is this when the civil rights movement brought so many opportunities for them? Why are they STILL waiting for politicians to save them? Why are they still complaining of racism and unfair advantages when the truth is they have ALL the advantanges? Affirmative Action was not created for non-whites. It was created for BLACKS. I can't understand it. A foreigner who comes to America with barely any English skills and no education will become a doctor. But a black American born and raised in America with free education and scholarships for college may end up in prison by age 19. It's a a tragedy this country has not dealt with and can't deal with anyway because when someone tries to address the problem they are called racist.[/quote]

I am not trying to start a fight or nit pick at anything that you are saying...but do you have a source for your information? I would like to read about this. I am just interested it the stats and such. I wonder if this will change as the hispanic immigrants come. I know in my area the majority of poor are hispanics. So I am just curious.

Thanks,
Meg

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='picchick' post='1631839' date='Aug 19 2008, 03:34 PM']I am not trying to start a fight or nit pick at anything that you are saying...but do you have a source for your information? I would like to read about this. I am just interested it the stats and such. I wonder if this will change as the hispanic immigrants come. I know in my area the majority of poor are hispanics. So I am just curious.

Thanks,
Meg[/quote]


You can find some of the data on crime here:

[url="http://www.peace.ca/truthaboutblackcrime.htm"]http://www.peace.ca/truthaboutblackcrime.htm[/url]


[quote]Among men, blacks (28.5%) are about six times more likely than whites (4.4%)
to be admitted to prison during their life. Among women, 3.6% of blacks and
0.5% of whites will enter prison at least once. (U.S. Department of Justice)
Based on current rates of incarceration, an estimated 7.9% of black males
compared to 0.7% of white males will enter State of Federal prison by the
time they are age 20 and 21.4% of black males versus 1.4% of white males will
be incarcerated by age 30. (U.S. Department of Justice)
Some have noted that more black men are in prison in America than are in
college. (The Black and White of Justice, Freedom Magazine, Volume 128)

Statistics on black crime are, on the surface, very bleak. There are,
however, some very important factors that help to influence the numbers.
Consider those and a strong case for a much different view unfolds. Since 62%
of persons admitted to Federal prison and 31.1% of those admitted to State
prison for the first time were sentenced because of drug offenses, let us
first take a look at the racial disparity in the war on drugs:

The National Institute of Drug Abuse estimated that while 12 percent of drug
users are black, they make up nearly 50 percent of all drug possession
arrests in the U.S. (The Black and White of Justice, Freedom Magazine, Volume 128)
According to the National Drug Strategy Network, although African Americans
make up less than one-third of the population in Georgia, the black arrest
rate for drugs is five times greater than the white arrest rate. In addition,
since 1990, African Americans have accounted for more than 75% of persons
incarcerated for drug offenses in Georgia and make up 97.7% of the people in
that state who are given life sentences for drug offenses.[/quote]

Edited August 19, 2008 by Madame Vengier

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='picchick' post='1631839' date='Aug 19 2008, 03:34 PM']I am not trying to start a fight or nit pick at anything that you are saying...but do you have a source for your information? I would like to read about this. I am just interested it the stats and such. I wonder if this will change as the hispanic immigrants come. I know in my area the majority of poor are hispanics. So I am just curious.

Thanks,
Meg[/quote]

Some of the data on high school dropout rates:
[url="http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1181646,00.html"]http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/...1181646,00.html[/url]


[quote]In today's data-happy era of accountability, testing and No Child Left Behind, here is the most astonishing statistic in the whole field of education: an increasing number of researchers are saying that nearly 1 out of 3 public high school students won't graduate, not just in Shelbyville but around the nation. For [b]Latinos and African Americans, the rate approaches an alarming 50%. Virtually no community, small or large, rural or urban, has escaped the problem.[/b][/quote]

Edited August 19, 2008 by Madame Vengier

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='picchick' post='1631839' date='Aug 19 2008, 03:34 PM']I am not trying to start a fight or nit pick at anything that you are saying...but do you have a source for your information? I would like to read about this. I am just interested it the stats and such. I wonder if this will change as the hispanic immigrants come. I know in my area the majority of poor are hispanics. So I am just curious.

Thanks,
Meg[/quote]

You can do simple Google searches for the other stuff. It's worth noting that in all the stats that you will find regarding these areas (that I mentioned) Blacks will be in the highest numbers, but Latinos are right behind them. In a study I saw from 2006 (can't find the link now) showed that while Black teens still have the highest numbers among minorities, Latina teens are fast beating out ALL teens in the pregnancy stats. However, overall teen pregnancies are down a bit from pervious years.

Edited August 19, 2008 by Madame Vengier

[Madame Vengier]

*seriously having computer probs right now*

Edited August 19, 2008 by Madame Vengier

[Madame Vengier]

*yep, computer probs*

Edited August 19, 2008 by Madame Vengier

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='picchick' post='1631839' date='Aug 19 2008, 03:34 PM']I am not trying to start a fight or nit pick at anything that you are saying...but do you have a source for your information? I would like to read about this. I am just interested it the stats and such. I wonder if this will change as the hispanic immigrants come. I know in my area the majority of poor are hispanics. So I am just curious.

Thanks,
Meg[/quote]

Here are some stats on AA and incarceration. Really, it's all just very, very sad.
[url="http://www.hrw.org/backgrounder/usa/race/"]http://www.hrw.org/backgrounder/usa/race/[/url]


[quote]Incarceration of Blacks

· In twelve states, between 10 and 15 percent of adult black men are incarcerated.

· In ten states, between 5 and 10 percent of black adults are incarcerated.

· In twelve states, black men are incarcerated at rates between twelve and sixteen times greater than those of white men.

· In fifteen states, black women are incarcerated at rates between ten and thirty-five times greater than those of white women.

· In six states, black youth under age eighteen are incarcerated in adult facilities at rates between twelve and twenty-five times greater than those of white youth.[/quote]

[quote]In this briefing, we do not analyze the diverse reasons for these troubling statistics. Crime rates, law enforcement priorities, sentencing legislation and other factors play a role in creating racial disparities in incarceration. For example, penal policies instituted to control crime have exacerbated longstanding racial disparities in the criminal justice system.5 Sentences for violent crimes have been substantially increased through the passage of mandatory minimum sentencing laws, "three strikes" laws, and truth in sentencing laws that require inmates to serve 85 percent of their sentences. Because blacks constitute a large percentage among those arrested for violent crimes (45 percent-a proportion that has not changed significantly over the years), they are disproportionately affected by the longer sentences.6

Blacks have also been disproportionately affected by the national "war on drugs", carried out primarily through the arrest, prosecution and imprisonment of street level drug offenders from inner city communities. In 1996, for example, blacks constituted 62.6 percent of all drug offenders admitted to state prisons. In at least fifteen states, black men were sent to prison on drug charges at rates ranging from twenty to fifty-seven times those of white men.7 Blacks are prosecuted in federal courts more frequently than whites for crack cocaine offenses, and thus as a group have felt the effects of the longer sentences for crack versus powder cocaine mandated in federal law. Racial profiling and other forms of unequal treatment of minorities by the criminal justice system have further contributed to the overrepresentation of minorities in the incarcerated population. Minority youth are treated far more harshly compared to similarly situated white counterparts within the juvenile criminal justice system.8

As the charts in this update reveal, there are striking differences among the states in the degree of variations of racial disparities in incarceration. State criminal justice and law enforcement policies clearly play a role in creating these differences. Demographics are important as well. Some of the greatest racial disparities in rates of incarceration occur in states in which minorities are concentrated in urban areas, which tend to have both higher rates of crime and greater law enforcement activity.

The high and disproportionate rate of minority incarceration in the U.S., particularly that of blacks, is a grave challenge to the country. Last year, the Leadership Conference on Civil Rights warned that racial inequalities in the criminal justice system threatened to negate fifty years of hard-fought civil right progress.9 While incarceration rates reflect many race-neutral factors, racial bias or sheer indifference to the fate of minority communities has surely contributed to the development and persistence of such racially disparate rates of incarceration. States have choices in the means by which they promote community well-being and protect public safety; the choices made in recent years have levied a particularly high cost on minority communities.[/quote]

Although some will debate that blacks are "unfairly targeted" and that this contributes to the high statistical numbers, the fact remains that for a MINORITY (roughly 12% of the total US population) they have extraordinarily high numbers in this area.

[b]But, once again, the Latinos are right behind Blacks in these numbers. [/b]

Edited August 19, 2008 by Madame Vengier

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1631445' date='Aug 19 2008, 06:01 AM']Word to all that.

And further thoughts...

Despite Affirmative Action, despite numerous types of scholarships, despite numerous opportunities for success, various hand-outs and so forth, STILL the highest number of Americans on welfare are Blacks. The highest rate of crimes are committed by Blacks. The highest rate of high-school drop outs are Blacks. The hightest rate of teen pregnancy and out-of-wedlock pregnancy are among blacks. The highest rate of living below the poverty level is among Blacks. The highest number of men behind prison bars are among Blacks. The highest rate of AIDS is among Blacks. Why is this? Why is this when the civil rights movement brought so many opportunities for them? Why are they STILL waiting for politicians to save them? Why are they still complaining of racism and unfair advantages when the truth is they have ALL the advantanges? Affirmative Action was not created for non-whites. It was created for BLACKS. I can't understand it. A foreigner who comes to America with barely any English skills and no education will become a doctor. But a black American born and raised in America with free education and scholarships for college may end up in prison by age 19. It's a a tragedy this country has not dealt with and can't deal with anyway because when someone tries to address the problem they are called racist.[/quote]
The funny thing is...
a lot of people would see those stats and use them to show that affirmative action is needed more than ever.
The thing is... it proves to me that the system failed outright.