Affirmative Action

[Hassan]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1623922' date='Aug 11 2008, 06:29 AM']It does sound like a load of garbage. We're all American. I don't buy this "different heritage" nonsense, like we're talking about foreigners or something.[/quote]

Are you denying that there is a black culture?

[Hassan]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1623857' date='Aug 11 2008, 12:15 AM']The only thing I've heard in support of affirmative action that approaches intelligence is this:
minorities, coming from a different culture, naturally do not identify as well with interviewers for jobs, education, etc, as a person coming from their own racial group. By the nature of their different heritage, the interviewer and the applicant may have differences that make the interviewer assume they are not as qualified, though they may be equally so.
In theory, affirmative action still carrying on today is supposed to rectify that.

HOWEVER
I think that sounds like a load of garbage, myself.[/quote]


Was your high school majority white?

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1623933' date='Aug 11 2008, 08:08 AM']Was your high school majority white?[/quote]
Irrelevant. Decline to comment.
This isn't something I learned in school, nor did I form my opinions based on anything I learned or experienced in school.

[dominicansoul]

Just for the record,

I'm Hispanic and "affirmative action" has never helped me one bit in my lifetime...

I'm glad, because I like to believe I've achieved what I've achieved on my own merits (and of course, by the grace of God!)

[mommas_boy]

I dunno. I think that white privilege still exists. It's mostly institutional now, based on the unfair structures of society, rather than the bigotry of employers or educators. I think that it's fair to say that, for the most part, bigotry in the work place is gone, but I think that unfair societal structures still tend to dictate that people in a specific class will stay in that class because they lack the resources to move up in the class hierarchy.

In regards to race, I think that class boundaries tend to align themselves with race because races of color started out in lower classes in America and haven't been able to pull themselves out [b]yet[/b] because of those societal structures. There are exceptions, but my own observations and education tell me that that is the rule.

I think that affirmative action for education is a good thing. After having received an education, I like to think that the playing field has been leveled, and there is no need for affirmative action in the work place. Not sure about this though.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='mommas_boy' post='1630236' date='Aug 17 2008, 10:39 PM']I dunno. I think that white privilege still exists. It's mostly institutional now, based on the unfair structures of society, rather than the bigotry of employers or educators. I think that it's fair to say that, for the most part, bigotry in the work place is gone, but I think that unfair societal structures still tend to dictate that people in a specific class will stay in that class because they lack the resources to move up in the class hierarchy.

In regards to race, I think that class boundaries tend to align themselves with race because races of color started out in lower classes in America and haven't been able to pull themselves out [b]yet[/b] because of those societal structures. There are exceptions, but my own observations and education tell me that that is the rule.

I think that affirmative action for education is a good thing. After having received an education, I like to think that the playing field has been leveled, and there is no need for affirmative action in the work place. Not sure about this though. [/quote]
I guess it depends on who we listen to more, right?
I mean... I'm not out there in lower class neighbourhoods, or watching any people from a particular minority group trying to get a job or get into university, so I don't have an opinion that I develop of my own observations. Not really. At least not one that covers everything.
That's why I asked. There is a huge range of experience and knowedge on this website. People know things... and they tell me!

[mommas_boy]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1630286' date='Aug 18 2008, 12:34 AM']I guess it depends on who we listen to more, right?
I mean... I'm not out there in lower class neighbourhoods, or watching any people from a particular minority group trying to get a job or get into university, so I don't have an opinion that I develop of my own observations. Not really. At least not one that covers everything.
That's why I asked. There is a huge range of experience and knowedge on this website. People know things... and they tell me! [/quote]

Indeed, I do think it depends on who we listen to more. That's why I'm happy that you asked.

I think that I tend to come off as a bleeding-heart to my conservative friends, but a staunch traditionalist to my more liberal ones. It's a very uncomfortable position to be in when these types of conversations crop up, and I'm always very reluctant to say anything because of it. But still, I can't help but chime in. I've had a lot of varied experiences, and listened to a lot of people so-to-speak. So, talking to people who don't share my experiences is always uncomfortable for me, but I've learned to live with being uncomfortable.

I hope that you weren't offended by my post in the least; I sensed a certain amount of defensiveness in your reply, and it wasn't my goal to be antagonistic. You have the right attitude, and I just want to make sure that it stays that way, little bro. <scruffles hair>

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='mommas_boy' post='1630306' date='Aug 17 2008, 11:55 PM']Indeed, I do think it depends on who we listen to more. That's why I'm happy that you asked.

I think that I tend to come off as a bleeding-heart to my conservative friends, but a staunch traditionalist to my more liberal ones. It's a very uncomfortable position to be in when these types of conversations crop up, and I'm always very reluctant to say anything because of it. But still, I can't help but chime in. I've had a lot of varied experiences, and listened to a lot of people so-to-speak. So, talking to people who don't share my experiences is always uncomfortable for me, but I've learned to live with being uncomfortable.

I hope that you weren't offended by my post in the least; I sensed a certain amount of defensiveness in your reply, and it wasn't my goal to be antagonistic. You have the right attitude, and I just want to make sure that it stays that way, little bro. <scruffles hair>[/quote]
Ooh, no no. There was no defensiveness in my reply. No, I really liked your post!
I sorta went off into one of my daydreamy little ramblings.
Apparently the two sound the same.

It's interesting... that you find yourself in that situation. The way things are for me, basically all of my friends are apathetic or socialist. Or both. Young people tend to be that way. Uncomfortable for me as well. They make a heck of a lot of assumptions knowing I'm conservative.
Just out of curiosity, since when did being conservative mean I "don't care about the poor"? I always did wonder about that one. Maybe someday I'll figure that little tidbit out.
It's all about experience, I think. There's certain things that maybe people like me, or maybe you will never understand. I don't think I'll ever really understand what it's like to be a dirt poor starving person under a dictatorial regime. I guess people like me will just have to do our best to listen to people who maybe do have an idea about that. Or at least people who have an idea because they talked to people who have a better idea?
After all, we'll never know all that much about our world. We'll do our best, and we'll learn a lot of things, but we can't approach knowing everything.
So we try (who cares that we won't 'succeed'? It's not the poing anyway.), and we do some good things along the way.

[CatherineM]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1623931' date='Aug 11 2008, 08:03 AM']What time has past? When there was gross inequality between the black and white populations in the United States?

I wouldn’t base it purely on race, but certain forms of affirmative actions should absolutely be allowed. The idea that a black kid from the South Bronx going to an inner city school with a 4.0 GPA shouldn’t be given a leg up over a rich white kid who got tutors and a world class teachers is silly. Similar considerations should be given to a white kid who was born in a bad neighborhood with horrid schools.[/quote]

I was the poor white kid from an inner city school with the 4.0 GPA. No way my parents were going to be able to send any of us to college. A black kid shot and killed a white kid in the hallway when I was a freshman. It led to weeks of race riots. My high school was 50/50 white/black. The leg ups I was given were based on financial need, not the color of my skin. They were open to any of my classmates who were similarly poor. My highschool was so poor that the only advanced science they offered was one year of chemistry taught by a special ed instructor. No physics, no advanced placement stuff, but lots of vo tech classes. I would have loved it if they had affirmative actioned some money into our school system, but we had so much white flight, that they took their big houses that paid good tax money with them when they left. Just because you're black doesn't mean you are poorer or dumber.

[mommas_boy]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1630437' date='Aug 18 2008, 11:05 AM']Just because you're black doesn't mean you are poorer or dumber.[/quote]

Agreed. It's a class issue.

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1630437' date='Aug 18 2008, 11:05 AM']I would have loved it if they had affirmative actioned some money into our school system, but we had so much white flight, that they took their big houses that paid good tax money with them when they left.[/quote]

This is why I support money from education coming from state-wide income taxes, rather than local property taxes. These disparities start getting really bad in the Chicago area, because you have the urban schools that are so close to the affluent suburban schools that you start to scratch your head at the inequalities.

[Winchester]

Ah, the monolithic races!

I'm white. I work for a living. I am not rich, nor do I have a college degree. I have probably suffered from discrimination. Everyone has. Some to greater degree than others, and my experience is certainly quite different from that of a black person. Up until this job, I was in unskilled labor and worked with a majority of Hispanics. My race was probably of little advantage, but it was also of little disadvantage because I was nice and didn't fulfill the white guy stereotype in most cases. I now have a government job. I was in the minority at my first place of work and because of the culture there, I learned more than I would have at many other stations with a different racial makeup. Trying to pin down some overweening program to fix racial discrimination is like trying to herd cats.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1630465' date='Aug 18 2008, 11:45 AM']Ah, the monolithic races!

I'm white. I work for a living. I am not rich, nor do I have a college degree. I have probably suffered from discrimination. Everyone has. Some to greater degree than others, .[/quote]

Exactly the point I was making before in other posts. Glad it's not just me.

Edited August 18, 2008 by Madame Vengier

[Madame Vengier]

*double post*

Edited August 18, 2008 by Madame Vengier

[picchick]

[quote name='KOIfriend' post='1622114' date='Aug 8 2008, 09:27 PM']Who really cares if some of a different race gets a job you should get. Share and share alike, that's the communist motto![/quote]
I do care. Right now I am struggling to get a job. I have struggled just like everyone else through school. I worked my butt off to get the grades and the experience that I have. I should be thrown in the pool like everyone else and not be judged on my skin color or heritage. We should be looked at based off of qualifications.

You should care too. I am a nurse.

If you had someone of another color who was not as qualified as someone else but they were picked based off of their race would you want them performing a procedure on you? I mos def wouldn't. I would want the most qualified person doing the procedure on me regardless of race.

If you had your child going to school, would you want someone teaching them who was not as qualified but was picked based off their race? I would hope not. I would hope that you would want the most qualified teacher to teach your kid again, regardless of race.

[quote name='Hassan' post='1623931' date='Aug 11 2008, 09:03 AM']What time has past? When there was gross inequality between the black and white populations in the United States?

I wouldn't base it purely on race, but certain forms of affirmative actions should absolutely be allowed. The idea that a black kid from the South Bronx going to an inner city school with a 4.0 GPA shouldn't be given a leg up over a rich white kid who got tutors and a world class teachers is silly. Similar considerations should be given to a white kid who was born in a bad neighborhood with horrid schools.[/quote]

Again, I think that AA will work against in this situation because UNQUALIFIED kids will be given the position. I think that they should instead look at the qualifications. That the black kid has the GPA and the white one doesn't. Therefore the black kid should be picked. Plain and easy.

[quote name='mommas_boy' post='1630236' date='Aug 17 2008, 11:39 PM']I dunno. I think that white privilege still exists. It's mostly institutional now, based on the unfair structures of society, rather than the bigotry of employers or educators. I think that it's fair to say that, for the most part, bigotry in the work place is gone, but I think that unfair societal structures still tend to dictate that people in a specific class will stay in that class because they lack the resources to move up in the class hierarchy.

In regards to race, I think that class boundaries tend to align themselves with race because races of color started out in lower classes in America and haven't been able to pull themselves out [b]yet[/b] because of those societal structures. There are exceptions, but my own observations and education tell me that that is the rule.

I think that affirmative action for education is a good thing. After having received an education, I like to think that the playing field has been leveled, and there is no need for affirmative action in the work place. Not sure about this though. [/quote]

Disagreed whole heartedly.

I went to Benedictine University. I have no doubt in my mind that AA was used there. I had an awesome GPA going into college and I had awesome ACT score. However, I had to fight to get into the school. It was ridiculous. They wanted to know what books I used, how long it took me to get through them, any other test scores, how my dad calcuated the GPA etc etc etc. They didn't want to take the face value of my grades that we provided them with or the ACT score. Now I can be lenient with the grades we gave them. Anyone can make up grades, sure. BUT THE ACT SCORE?????? I can't fake that.

I did get into the school finally. When I got in I became involved in organizations. I didn't cheat, I did my work well, I made good grades.

But I had an African-American friend. He was accepted no problem. His ACT score was LOWER then the university standard!!! He cared nothing for school. Although he studied a little, he was more interested in the party scene. So what happened? He had to drop or else fail out of the school.

At the school there was so many Muslim students and Indian students. Although some of them were very nice and respectful, many were not. They were destructive, they were rude, they cheated on exams (instructors NOTIFIED of such behavior) and yet they were still allowed to attend.

This is all very frustrating to me. And of course, to say all this could be considered by many to be racist. It is not. It is unfair. To say that we do not believe AA is good is not racist, is not complaining, it is not unfair. It is true. People need to be considered by their qualifications. Not by money, not by race, not by creed. BY THEIR QUALIFICATIONS.

I will add there are of course other African-American and Muslim friends who I have worked along side with in Nursing School that I know worked just as hard as anyone else. And the deserve any job they want.

Thanks,
Meg

Edited August 18, 2008 by picchick

[Winchester]

[quote name='mommas_boy' post='1630236' date='Aug 17 2008, 11:39 PM']In regards to race, I think that class boundaries tend to align themselves with race because races of color started out in lower classes in America and haven't been able to pull themselves out [b]yet[/b] because of those societal structures. There are exceptions, but my own observations and education tell me that that is the rule.[/quote]
Yeah, like the Irish.


The biggest problem for lower classes in America continues to be themselves. No, they might not be rich, but I experience firsthand what they do to their own neighborhoods, families and the things handed out by the government. Not to mention what the younger generations do to the property their parents worked hard to obtain.

When activists become more interested in solving the problem rather than using it to further their celebrity, then perhaps they will make a difference. But the real difference will be when the communities themselves decide to do the best they can with what they've got.