Latin...why?

[KOIfriend]

LATIN smells of elderberries, SO DOES LATIN MASS. LATIN IS A DEAD LANGUAGE, AND IT SHOULD STAY DEAD, DEAD, DEAD!

[Justin86]

Wow.

For someone who claims to value humility perhaps you should consider that Latin is the official language of the Church, and was never meant to "die" after Vatican II. As a matter of fact the Pope wants it to make a big comeback so I hear. Have you at all looked into the opinions of the other side on the matter, especially those of our Church authorities?

[KOIfriend]

[quote name='Justin86' post='1622361' date='Aug 9 2008, 05:18 AM']Wow.

For someone who claims to value humility perhaps you should consider that Latin is the official language of the Church, and was never meant to "die" after Vatican II. As a matter of fact the Pope wants it to make a big comeback so I hear. Have you at all looked into the opinions of the other side on the matter, especially those of our Church authorities?[/quote]

Why do I need to check out any other opinions? Is that a requirement here?

I don't know about this Latin stuff! It's a fricking conspiracy! I know it! Who knows what they could be saying in Latin.

I like the English language better. I've read and listened to it all my life, and it has suited me well. So, why, if the Catholic Church is universal, do I need to learn something new, just to comprehend what is being said during a mass! Not very universal in my books! Maybe that a fallacy of your religion! I think Catholic/Universal is a misnomer! Fricking false advertising. Can I sue? You said it was universal, but I can't understand a word you are saying in mass!

[Justin86]

[quote name='KOIfriend' post='1622367' date='Aug 9 2008, 05:32 PM']Why do I need to check out any other opinions? Is that a requirement here?

I don't know about this Latin stuff! It's a fricking conspiracy! I know it! Who knows what they could be saying in Latin.

I like the English language better. I've read and listened to it all my life, and it has suited me well. So, why, if the Catholic Church is universal, do I need to learn something new, just to comprehend what is being said during a mass! Not very universal in my books! Maybe that a fallacy of your religion! I think Catholic/Universal is a misnomer! Fricking false advertising. Can I sue? You said it was universal, but I can't understand a word you are saying in mass![/quote]
Uh...if the Catholic Church is universal it would make sense to have a universal language (there's more out there than English and Latin ya know).

You were the one who first came on here and gave us Americans a lecture on humility. You would think someone so humble would consider other opinions before forming one of his own so strongly.

[IcePrincessKRS]

[quote name='KOIfriend' post='1622295' date='Aug 9 2008, 01:46 AM']And guess who took the bait, miss obvious!

You wouldn't be french would you?[/quote]

You do know trolling is rude and frowned upon, right?

[Era Might]

[quote name='IrishSalesian' post='1619090' date='Aug 6 2008, 11:34 AM']Im not saying that Latin should be barred out, or that it should be the only language in the Church, or liturgies. My thought for all is this. What does it matter what language is spoken, during the Mass, or anyother Church based forum, when the bottom line is salvation. If we are trying to save our souls, and the souls of others, those who are to be priests through the sacraments, why does it matter what language it is? Im not looking for "it is the 'language of the church' either. Im curious. I love the latin language it is beautiful. I want to know why it matters so much to so many.[/quote]
I have become more appreciative over the years of the role of Latin in the Latin Church. I think it can perhaps be seen as a sort of sacramental. It is not that it is, by itself, necessarily better than any other language, any more than a scapular is, by itself, better than any other piece of cloth. A scapular is holy because of the blessing of the Church, the faith it represents, its union with the Carmelite tradition, etc. Likewise, Latin is part of the tradition of the Latin Church. It is not just an archaic language. It is a living part of our Liturgical and spiritual tradition. Latin connects our prayers to the tradition of the Church; not just symbolically, but in a living way, because tradition is living. I also think the idea of Latin as a sort of Western "iconostasis" is an interesting idea. We need mystery in the Mass. The Liturgy should raise questions, and should challenge us to learn more. People should ask questions such as, "Why do we do this at Mass?" or "What does this mean at Mass." Even small things are important, because it forces people to make a decision. Do they care about their faith enough to understand it? Are they going to remain lukewarm, or are they going to make the effort to grow in their knowledge of the faith and the Church? In that way, I think Latin does help save souls. The vernacular can still be used, but I think it is important that Latin become again a living and integral part of our life and worship in the Latin Church. For example, I like when the Scripture readings are read first in Latin at Extraordinary Form Masses, and then read again in English just before the homily. This balances mystery and tradition, with the desire to make the proclamation of the Word of God more easily accessible to the people. Ironically, when mystery is lacking in a Liturgical celebration, I think that can foster a sense to the people that they already understand, so they don't need to learn more. They can become complacent or lukewarm in their faith, which truly leads them to "go through the motions" at Mass. Whereas someone may not fully understand something at a Mass in Latin, but as I said before, it leads them to the realization that they need to grow in their faith. Spiritual growth is not something that happens one Sunday, but rather something that happens over an entire lifetime.

[quote name='KOIfriend' post='1622197' date='Aug 8 2008, 10:43 PM']Priests who talk in Latin during mass, according to church tradition handed down by Paul, speak into the air, and it profits nobody![/quote]
St. Paul writes:

[quote]So with yourselves; if you in a tongue utter speech that is not intelligible, how will any one know what is said? For you will be speaking into the air.

--1Corinthians 14:9[/quote]
He is referring to tongues spoken that are completely unknown. But even those unknown tongues he does not completely forbid, because they can express "mysteries in the Spirit":

[quote]For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit. On the other hand, he who prophesies speaks to men for their upbuilding and encouragement and consolation. He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. Now I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than he who speaks in tongues, unless some one interprets, so that the church may be edified.

--1Corinthians 14:2-5[/quote]
He says that when a tongue is spoken that is not known, it only edifies the Church when it is interpreted. But Latin is not an unknown language. Latin is probably the most well-known language in human history. It is not even a dead language. It is used everyday. For example, whenever someone uses the abbreviations "i.e." or "e.g." they are using Latin. And even though Latin is a well-known language, there are Missals with translations of the Mass for those who do not know Latin.

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1622341' date='Aug 9 2008, 02:00 AM']It doesn't matter. The use of Latin by any self-governing Church is not a dogmatic matter; instead, it is simply a human custom.[/quote]
I would say Latin is more than just a "custom," but rather a vital tradition in the Latin Church. The preservation of tradition is not limited to dogma. It is important to preserve the diverse Liturgical and spiritual traditions in each self-governing Church, which express the one Catholic faith. In the Latin Church, the Latin language is an important aspect of our expression of the faith.

[Justin86]

You know with all of KOIfriend's Scripture references that he throws at us with his if-you-disagree-with-my-interpretation-you're-wrong type attitude, I'm beginning to wonder if this guy is really more Protestant than he is Catholic...

Budge, is that you?

[IcePrincessKRS]

[quote name='KOIfriend' post='1622346' date='Aug 9 2008, 03:20 AM']LATIN smells of elderberries, SO DOES LATIN MASS. LATIN IS A DEAD LANGUAGE, AND IT SHOULD STAY DEAD, DEAD, DEAD![/quote]

A dead language only means it is no longer developing and that it is not spoken by anyone as their main language, not that it isn't in use at all.

[quote name='Justin86' post='1622509' date='Aug 9 2008, 01:07 PM']You know with all of KOIfriend's Scripture references that he throws at us with his if-you-disagree-with-my-interpretation-you're-wrong type attitude, I'm beginning to wonder if this guy is really more Protestant than he is Catholic...

Budge, is that you? [/quote]

His religion states that he's a "Christ Follower"; my interpretation of this is that he's not Catholic. I wasn't aware that Christ instructed his followers to troll. I'll have to read my Bible more closely.

[Justin86]

[quote name='IcePrincessKRS' post='1622522' date='Aug 10 2008, 01:20 AM']His religion states that he's a "Christ Follower"; my interpretation of this is that he's not Catholic. I wasn't aware that Christ instructed his followers to troll. I'll have to read my Bible more closely.[/quote]
Na, lets just make him the Pope since he's infallible on Scripture. After all, the current one is a German, and a Nazi who wants to bring back Latin which will obviously resurrect the Third Reich.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1622508' date='Aug 9 2008, 10:06 AM']I would say Latin is more than just a "custom," but rather a vital tradition in the Latin Church. The preservation of tradition is not limited to dogma. It is important to preserve the diverse Liturgical and spiritual traditions in each self-governing Church, which express the one Catholic faith. In the Latin Church, the Latin language is an important aspect of our expression of the faith.[/quote]
The Western Church only translated its liturgy from Greek into Latin in the 4th century. It is simply a human custom, and not a universal one at that.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1622596' date='Aug 9 2008, 01:37 PM']The Western Church only translated its liturgy from Greek into Latin in the 4th century. It is simply a human custom, and not a universal one at that.[/quote]
So do you believe that Liturgical and spiritual traditions which did not begin at the time of the Apostles do not matter?

Even if the tradition of Latin in the Latin Church began in the 4th century, it is still approximately 1500 years old. And while Latin was first used because it was the vernacular (as many Liturgical traditions began for practical reasons), it has become part of our Liturgical and spiritual heritage.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1622601' date='Aug 9 2008, 11:38 AM']So do you believe that Liturgical and spiritual traditions which did not begin at the time of the Apostles do not matter?

Even if it did begin in the 4th century, the tradition of Latin in the Latin Church is approximately 1500 years old. And while its use began as the vernacular, it has become part of our Liturgical and spiritual heritage.[/quote]
My point is this: In the 4th century the Western Church moved from using what had become an archaic language in its territories (i.e., Greek), which was understood by very few people, to the vernacular language of that time (i.e., Latin). Clearly, the language used during the liturgical assembly has never been seen as a divinely revealed matter, or as a dogma, or as a doctrine, or even a theologoumenon; and if an inspired language were to be used in Christian worship it should be Greek, because it is the language of the New Testament scriptures and of the Old Testament (LXX) used by the early Church.

That said, what I am opposing in this thread is the idea of investing the use of the Latin language with some type of quasi-dogmatic or doctrinal status, which it cannot legitimately bear.

Edited August 9, 2008 by Apotheoun

[Era Might]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1622614' date='Aug 9 2008, 01:49 PM']That said, what I am opposing in this thread is the idea of investing the use of the Latin language with some type of quasi-dogmatic or doctrinal status, which it cannot legitimately bear.[/quote]
I don't think anyone has said that the use of Latin is a doctrinal issue. But it is a vital tradition of the Latin Church. It is similar to Liturgical vestments. Our vestments have their roots in Roman tradition, just as Byzantine vestments have their roots in Byzantine tradition. There is no doctrine about what vestments must look like, but each Church preserves the vestments in the style that they have received. Similarly, in the Latin Church, we have received the use of Latin not as an outdated custom, but as a part of our Liturgical and spiritual tradition, which expresses the unity of the Church, the transcendence of the Mass, etc.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1622618' date='Aug 9 2008, 11:56 AM']I don't think anyone has said that the use of Latin is a doctrinal issue. But it is an integral tradition of the Latin Church.[/quote]
I have dealt with many Roman Catholics who see Latin as the language of the universal Church, which it is not, and who invest it with divine importance, which it does not possess.

The use of Latin in the Western Church's liturgy is a human custom, which is important in a very limited way, but which is not an integral tradition of the Roman Church, any more than Old Church Slavonic is an integral custom of the Ruthenian Church, or the Greek language is in connection with the Greek Orthodox Church. Christianity is a universal religion and a great number of languages have been used in the Church's worship throughout history (Greek, Syriac, Aramaic, Latin, Slavonic, Arabic, etc.), and yet not one of those languages can claim superiority over any other in the list (although Greek would have the best chance of making such a claim).

Edited August 9, 2008 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1622618' date='Aug 9 2008, 11:56 AM']. . . which expresses the unity of the Church, the transcendence of the Mass, etc.[/quote]
It only expresses the unity of the Church if you limit the Church to the Roman Church, which I do not do.