Latin...why?

[MissScripture]

[quote name='KOIfriend' post='1622183' date='Aug 8 2008, 09:36 PM']LOL!

Nice try, I won't fall for that one , [url="http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/nitpick.htm"]Nit Picker[/url]

[img]http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/Assets/nitpick.jpg[/img][/quote]
I find it interesting how you avoid the topic at hand by blaming others for avoiding the acutal issue.

I think it's a legitimate question, if you say that people praying in a language you don't understand, to ask if you find it creepy if people pray in languages other than English.

[KOIfriend]

[quote name='Selah' post='1622185' date='Aug 8 2008, 11:38 PM']So, are you gonna address anything we ask you, or just post pretty pictures in response to someone who you don't agree with?[/quote]
I don't think a sexy french girl praying in french would be creepy, actually it would be attractive, with her sexy accent.

Now, deal with scripture.

[quote]Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?

And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?

For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?

So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.

There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification. 1 Corinthians 14:6-10[/quote]

Priests who talk in Latin during mass, according to church tradition handed down by Paul, speak into the air, and it profits nobody!

Come one, you must have over read that portion of the Bible!

Edited August 9, 2008 by KOIfriend

[Cam42]

[quote name='running the race' post='1622175' date='Aug 8 2008, 08:26 PM']This thread breaks my heart. Here we are arguing (you could call it debating, but I think we've begun to drift away from presenting factual arguments and are now just arguing) when we are supposed to be one family, one body in Christ. Now I can't help but wonder if this is what turns some people away from Catholicism, what appears to be a lack of unity in what should be a universal family (come to think of it, I've been told this). Instead of arguing, we should be building the family of God up. So, may I make a suggestion? Instead of arguing without a purpose let's try and teach each other something. Anybody that goes to the Tridentine Mass, please begin to share your experiences and maybe teach those that go the Novus Ordo something that would help when attending Mass in Latin. Those that attend the Novus Ordo Mass, please share you experiences, if you find it respectful, and what you gain from using the vernacular. I think we need one more part to this discussion, how can we catechize Catholics so that whether you attend the Tridentine Mass or the Novus Ordo, we all truly understand what is happening?

I guess I'll go first. I've attended the Novus Ordo my whole life. I would love to attend a Tridentine Mass, but haven't yet had the oppurtunity. I have experienced a few poorly celebrated Masses in my day, but for the most part I find them very respectful. I was blessed to grow up in a wonderful parish. I read through the readings every week before Mass and spend time praying through them. It really helps when I get to Mass. I find that the same words we hear every week take on a slightly different meaning and affect me in a different way. It's like God takes every part of the Mass and uses it to teach me what I need to know. I think this is wear using the vernacular helps. You tend to pick up the little things when the language being spoken is you first language. I will have to admit that using Latin at certain points during the Mass helps me worship God in a deeper way, and I look forward to seeing more of it. As for teaching the faith, if the priest has not taken the initiative, why can't we step up and suggest to our priest that a program be started (maybe cd's on every part of the Mass like I read earlier, or a question and answer section in the bulletin, or small groups that meet on a regular basis). I'm not exactly sure how all the details would work out, but it's someplace to start.

Can somebody teach me about the Tridentine Mass?[/quote]

Thanks for your post. A couple of responses to your post......

First, to discuss out an issue is not necessarily arguing.....it most certainly can be and I have been involved in some great ones over the years, but this isn't one of them.

Next, we are speaking about Latin in the Mass. We are not discussing the Extraordinary Form (Tridentine) v. the Ordinary Form (Novus Ordo). Latin is to be preserved in the Ordinary form. Latin is to be the normative language, all things being equal....at least that is what was envisioned through the Fathers of the Church at Vatican Council II. I have already posted to that effect. Please refer back.

What "little things" are you picking up at Mass? To be honest, the vernacular translation, in English is pretty simple (and IMO "dumbed down"). There are not too many nuances to be gleaned. If you are speaking about the preaching, well, that is a totally different issue. Preaching has always been in the vernacular. If you are speaking of the readings, well, they have been simplified too (again, IMO "dumbed down"), but they were read first in Latin, then in English, so that has never been an issue. With the Vatican Council II reforms, the Latin reading was simply eliminated.

If you are interested in learning more about the Extraordinary Form, I would suggest googling Una Voce, the FSSP, and there is a blog called "The New Liturgical Movement." Those are good places to start.

That being said...and this goes for everyone....The Latin Mass is not restricted to mean only the Extraordinary Form, but both the Extraordinary and Ordinary Forms....we must be consistent. The Church teaches that Latin is to be preserved and promoted. Again, if that is the case, then it is our job as faithful Catholics to assent first and learn second. But we must learn. That is what is at the heart of catechesis.....learning about what has been given to us, to enhance and promote our Faith. It may come as a suprise to some, but Latin and a properly celebrated Liturgy does that.....

[KOIfriend]

[mod]edit-- personal attacks-- hsm[/mod]

[Cam42]

[quote name='KOIfriend' post='1622197' date='Aug 8 2008, 08:43 PM']I don't think a sexy french girl praying in french would be creepy, actually it would be attractive, with her sexy accent.

Now, deal with scripture.

[quote]Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?

And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?

For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?

So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.

There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification. 1 Corinthians 14:6-10[/quote]
Priests who talk in Latin during mass, according to church tradition handed down by Paul, speak into the air, and it profits nobody!

Come one, you must have over read that portion of the Bible!
[/quote]

Holy taken out of context Batman!!!!! Did you even read what you posted? The Mass is not a prophecy, which is what is being talked about in that passage. The Mass is a matter of doctrine......and what does verse 6 say?
[quote]...unless I speak to you either in revelation, or in knowledge, or in prophecy, or in doctrine?[/quote]

What does it say in v. 10?
[quote]So likewise [b]you[/b], except [b]you utter [/b]by the tongue plain speech, how shall it be known what is said? For you shall be speaking into the air.[/quote]

That isn't the presbyter, but rather the faithful that Paul is speaking to. And further, he is speaking about false prophecy, which was the major issue in Corinth, not faithful rendition of the Liturgy being uttered in a language that is not the "mother tongue" of a certain country.....

So, yes, I have read the Sacred Scripture, I just think that you are missing the point. Sacred Scripture must be taken in context......

[Cam42]

[quote name='KOIfriend' post='1622218' date='Aug 8 2008, 09:07 PM']Wow.

Another poor, indoctrinated fool!

I feel sorry for all of you. Not only are so you illiterate to not understand 6 days and 6 nights is 144 hours, or maybe it's the math that got you all, as math is not a very well liked subject, despised by most. But you also can't understand that Paul said it doesn't profit anybody to talk in a language that the majority do not understand during a mass!

Where has the education failed you guys! Was it the Math, was it the english!

My God, this is our future, and people don't know how to read or add or multiply numbers![/quote]

Easy there big shooter....my education has not failed me, but rather.....I would get out of your armchair and actually take a theology class....it might do you some good.

BTW, I love Math.

[KOIfriend]

[quote]Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?[/quote]

Time for critical thinking children. Is Paul a minister or not? Come one, you can answer that one. I think you already have.

I think the education system has failed you brother/sister. Because you can't even determine Paul is talking about himself there. He said, it will not profit you anything, except I speak with knowledge and prophesying, doctrine and revelation. The people must understand.

I feel so sorry for you. I want to donate to charity to help people become more literate. What's your favourite one?

[HisChildForever]

[quote]I don't think a sexy french girl praying in french would be creepy, actually it would be attractive, with her sexy accent.[/quote]

I smell a troll on our boards.

[running the race]

[quote name='Cam42' post='1622208' date='Aug 8 2008, 11:58 PM']Thanks for your post. A couple of responses to your post......

First, to discuss out an issue is not necessarily arguing.....it most certainly can be and I have been involved in some great ones over the years, but this isn't one of them.

Next, we are speaking about Latin in the Mass. We are not discussing the Extraordinary Form (Tridentine) v. the Ordinary Form (Novus Ordo). Latin is to be preserved in the Ordinary form. Latin is to be the normative language, all things being equal....at least that is what was envisioned through the Fathers of the Church at Vatican Council II. I have already posted to that effect. Please refer back.

What "little things" are you picking up at Mass? To be honest, the vernacular translation, in English is pretty simple (and IMO "dumbed down"). There are not too many nuances to be gleaned. If you are speaking about the preaching, well, that is a totally different issue. Preaching has always been in the vernacular. If you are speaking of the readings, well, they have been simplified too (again, IMO "dumbed down"), but they were read first in Latin, then in English, so that has never been an issue. With the Vatican Council II reforms, the Latin reading was simply eliminated.

If you are interested in learning more about the Extraordinary Form, I would suggest googling Una Voce, the FSSP, and there is a blog called "The New Liturgical Movement." Those are good places to start.

That being said...and this goes for everyone....The Latin Mass is not restricted to mean only the Extraordinary Form, but both the Extraordinary and Ordinary Forms....we must be consistent. The Church teaches that Latin is to be preserved and promoted. Again, if that is the case, then it is our job as faithful Catholics to assent first and learn second. But we must learn. That is what is at the heart of catechesis.....learning about what has been given to us, to enhance and promote our Faith. It may come as a suprise to some, but Latin and a properly celebrated Liturgy does that.....[/quote]


I guess I should first say, I know the original intention of this thread was Latin in the Mass not Extraordinary vs Ordinary, but while I was reading the post I thought a saw it heading back in that direction (like it does too many times). I also realize that talking through is not arguing (and I thank you for responding to my post so rationally). I guess I didn't convey my feelings well. I get so frustrated when people try and talk through something without trying to truly listen to the other side. That is what I felt like was happening here. Which is why I proposed what I did, I was hoping if maybe we addressed the heart of the matter we would be able to understand each other better (I think many people are afraid that greater use of Latin in the Ordinary form will lead back to the Extraordinary form which they don't understand).

To address a final one of your thoughts. I wasn't necessarily implying that the English translation had several nuances to be gleaned. When I pray through the readings prior to Mass, I usually find that God is challenging me in some way (maybe forcing me to confront some sin in my life or calling me to do something I was afraid to do). Then as I pray throughout the Mass, the readings and the homily are not the only things that God uses to help me. I sometimes find that different parts of the Mass (such as a certain part of the Eucharistic prayer) will reflect that message and help "drive it home" if you will. For example, I have had many people hurt me in some way because of my faith in the past few years. It hurt me very much, and after some time I began to hide my faith. Recently, as I was reading the Bible and in prayer, I began to realized that I couldn't hide my faith, that it needed to be shared. This was reinforced for me during every part of the Mass. I believe that God can use anything to help you even if it's dumbed down English. I guess I'm also a little afraid that since a little more effort will have to be put into understanding more Latin in the mass, I'll miss some of the times where God tries to drive a message home. This is just a fear of mine that God and I will have to work through. I know that God can get the message through no matter the language.

I agree with you, we must learn which was why I made my last suggestion (I believe that we need catechesis outside of Mass, but a properly celebrated Mass is the first step).

Thanks for your suggestions for sources about the Tridentine Mass. I'm sorry I took this tread so off topic, I was merely hoping to get to the root of our differences in opinion and then be constructive with what we learn (I like constructive).

[KOIfriend]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1622267' date='Aug 9 2008, 12:56 AM']I smell a troll on our boards.[/quote]

And guess who took the bait, miss obvious!

You wouldn't be french would you?

Edited August 9, 2008 by KOIfriend

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='KOIfriend' post='1622295' date='Aug 9 2008, 12:46 AM']And guess who took the bait, miss obvious!

You wouldn't be french would you?[/quote]

Excuse me?

[KOIfriend]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1622300' date='Aug 9 2008, 01:57 AM']Excuse me?[/quote]
LOL!

I am only j/king! Really, you could take all of this less seriously!

[benedictaj]

[quote name='IrishSalesian' post='1619090' date='Aug 7 2008, 04:34 AM']Latin... why?[/quote]

Latin... why not?

it's universal - like the Church.

And it's crazy cool. Awesome to sing too.

hehehe, sorry I haven't read the replies though

[KOIfriend]

[quote name='memtherose' post='1622308' date='Aug 9 2008, 02:14 AM']Latin... why not?

it's universal - like the Church.

And it's crazy cool. Awesome to sing too.

hehehe, sorry I haven't read the replies though[/quote]

You'll love my responses. LOL!

I think it is wrong for mass to be in Latin, because it would be totally confusing to people coming to your church, in which, hopefully, they will leave because who can understand what is being said.

Edited August 9, 2008 by KOIfriend

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='IrishSalesian' post='1619090' date='Aug 6 2008, 09:34 AM']I want to know why it matters so much to so many.[/quote]
It doesn't matter. The use of Latin by any self-governing Church is not a dogmatic matter; instead, it is simply a human custom.