Latin...why?

[Cam42]

In reading through this thread, I have noticed a couple of things.....

1. No where is it simply a matter of opinion that Latin is to be used. As a matter of fact, Vatican Council II speaks to the contrary.

[quote]Sacrosanctum Concilium #36. 1. [b]Particular law remaining in force, the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites.[/b]

2. But since the use of the mother tongue, whether in the Mass, the administration of the sacraments, or other parts of the liturgy, frequently may be of great advantage to the people, the limits of its employment may be extended. This will apply in the first place to the readings and directives, and to [b]some of the prayers and chants[/b], according to the regulations on this matter to be laid down separately in subsequent chapters.

3. These norms being observed, it is for the competent territorial ecclesiastical authority mentioned in Art. 22, 2, to decide whether, and to what extent, the vernacular language is to be used; their decrees are to be approved, that is, confirmed, by the Apostolic See. And, whenever it seems to be called for, this authority is to consult with bishops of neighboring regions which have the same language.

4. Translations from the Latin text into the mother tongue intended for use in the liturgy must be approved by the competent territorial ecclesiastical authority mentioned above.[/quote]

There was never to be a wholesale dropping of the Language. It was a move away from the directive of Vatican Council II to make the whole Mass move to the "mother tongue."

[quote]The Catholic Church is not a national church; it is a Church for all nations under the sun. Universality is one of the marks by which it is distinguished from all other churches bearing the name Christian. Hence a universal language is necessary in its public worship. One hundred years ago, before English became a common language in international business life, the lack of a universal language was much deplored, and various attempts had been made to invent one. For the Catholic Church, in which the necessity of such a language is more urgent, a universal language has been providentially supplied. The possession of a common language is essential, not to the existence of the Church, but to its well-being. (Una Voce; Los Angeles)[/quote]

Looking at what was said here, we see that it is universality, which was earlier mentioned, but quickly dismissed. It should not be done. While by no means does everyone understand Latin, it is very naive to say that we cannot understand it.

Let's not forget that we purport ourselves to live in one of the smartest countries in the world. We claim to be experts in any number of matters, sports, science, finance, world politics, and as it stands to say that we cannot understand what goes on in a Latin Mass is selling short, on purpose. That is a cop out. There is no logic in saying that we are too "dumb" to understand the Latin used in Mass. I don't buy it. We know what is being done, even though we cannot understand all that is being said. However every Catholic can know what the priest is saying by simply following along in a missal, which has the English and Latin words side by side in columns. And there is no defense against this as most parishes have vernacular missalettes in the pews for the faithful to use EVEN THOUGH the Mass is in "the mother tongue."

[quote]Some people think, or have the perception, that the Second Vatican Council discouraged the use of Latin in the liturgy. This is not the case.

Just before he opened the Council, Blessed Pope John Paul XXIII in 1962 issued an Apostolic Constitution, to insist on the use of Latin in the Church. The Second Vatican Council, although it admitted some introduction of the vernacular, insisted on the place of Latin: "Particular law remaining in force, the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites" (Sacrosanctum Concilium, 36). The Council also required that seminarians "should acquire a command of Latin which will enable them to understand and use the source material of so many sciences and the documents of the Church as well" (Optatam Totius, 13). The Code of Canon Law published in 1983 enacts that "the eucharistic celebration: is to be carried out either in the Latin language or in another language, provided the liturgical texts have been lawfully approved" (Canon 928).

Those, therefore, who want to give the impression that the Church has put Latin away from her liturgy are mistaken. A manifestation of people's acceptance of Latin liturgy well celebrated was had at world level in April, 2005, when millions followed the burial rites of Pope John Paul II and then, two weeks later, the inauguration Mass of Pope Benedict XVI over the television.

It is remarkable that young people welcome the Mass celebrated sometimes in Latin. Problems are not lacking. So, too, there are misunderstandings and wrong approaches on the part of some priests on the use of Latin. But to get the matter in better focus, it is necessary first to examine the use of the vernacular in the liturgy of the Roman Rite today.(Francis Card. Arinze; LANGUAGE IN THE ROMAN RITE LITURGY:
LATIN AND VERNACULAR: Keynote Address at Gateway Liturgical Conference, St Louis, Missouri, November 11, 2006[/quote]

[quote]The Popes and the Roman Church have found Latin very suitable for many reasons. It fits a Church which is universal, a Church in which all peoples, languages and cultures should feel at home and no one is regarded as a stranger. Moreover, the Latin language has a certain stability which daily spoken languages where words change often in shades of meaning cannot have. An example is the translation of the Latin "propagare". The Congregation for the Evangelization of Peoples when it was founded in 1627 was called "Sacra Congregatio de Propaganda Fide". But at the time of the Second Vatican Council many modern languages use the word "propaganda" in the sense in which we say "political propaganda". Therefore there is a preference in the Church today to avoid the expression "de propaganda Fide", in favor of "the Evangelization of Peoples". Latin has the characteristic of words and expressions retaining their meaning generation after generation. This is an advantage when it comes to the articulation of our Catholic faith and the preparation of papal and other Church documents. Even the modern universities appreciate this point and have some of their solemn titles in Latin.

Blessed Pope John XXIII- in his Apostolic Constitution, Veterum Sapientia, issued on February 22, 1962, gives these two reasons and adds a third. The Latin language has a nobility and dignity which are not negligible (cf Veterum Sapientia, 5, 6, 7). We can add that Latin is concise, precise and poetically measured.

Is it not admirable that people, especially well trained clerics, can meet in international gatherings and be able to communicate at least in Latin? More importantly, is it a small matter that one million young people could meet in the World Youth Day Convention in Rome in 2000, in Toronto in 2002 and in Cologne in 2005, and be able to sing parts of the Mass, and especially the Credo, in Latin? Theologians can study the original writings of the early Latin Fathers and of the Scholastics without tears because these were written in Latin.

It is true that there is a tendency, both in the Church and in the world at large, to give more attention today to modern languages, like English, French and Spanish, which can help one secure a job quicker in the modern employment market or in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in their country. But the exhortation of Pope Benedict XVI to the students of the Faculty of Christian and Classical Letters of the Pontifical Salesian University of Rome, at the end of the Wednesday General Audience of February 22, 2006, retains its validity and relevance. And he pronounced it in Latin! Here is my free English translation: "Quite rightly our predecessors have urged the study of the great Latin language so that one may learn better the saving doctrine that is found in ecclesiastical and humanistic disciplines. In the same way we urge you to cultivate this activity so that as many as possible may have access to this treasure and appreciate its importance" (In L'Osservatore Romano, 45 (23 Feb. 2006, p. 5). (Ibid.)[/quote]

So, I would think that the words of the Prefect of Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments might hold some weight.

BTW, don't out so much emphasis on stats. They are only as good as those who are asked. And I would be willing to bet that there was not a good cross section of the 2 billion Catholics that were asked.

[puellapaschalis]

1. The Church says so.
2. Latin makes you think. It helps you get rid of your ego and focus on God. When you're there and you can't follow this or that, you have to sacrifice the comfort of "understanding" or "following the book" and you have to go with the flow which is not determined by you but by Someone else. It forces the necessary abstraction onto you, pulls you out of your usual rut and helps bring your attention to higher things.

[Deb]

[quote name='puellapaschalis' post='1621206' date='Aug 8 2008, 07:12 AM']1. The Church says so.
2. Latin makes you think. It helps you get rid of your ego and focus on God. When you're there and you can't follow this or that, you have to sacrifice the comfort of "understanding" or "following the book" and you have to go with the flow which is not determined by you but by Someone else. It forces the necessary abstraction onto you, pulls you out of your usual rut and helps bring your attention to higher things.[/quote]


That is what the Latin Mass does for you. Latin Mass for those who have never been to one may have them writing their grocery list in their head. Some may figure if they can't understand, they won't even try. I don't disagree with your love of Latin but, I do with your assuming all will react as you do to it.

[Cam42]

[quote name='Deb' post='1621210' date='Aug 8 2008, 05:53 AM']That is what the Latin Mass does for you. Latin Mass for those who have never been to one may have them writing their grocery list in their head. Some may figure if they can't understand, they won't even try. I don't disagree with your love of Latin but, I do with your assuming all will react as you do to it.[/quote]

There is more to the Mass than just the words. Even in the "mother tongue," we use a foreign language and nobody makes a stink about the Kyrie. That is Greek.

To say that we can't comprehend Latin is naive and a bit childish. To assume that people will be writing "Grocery lists" is not giving much credit to your fellow man and to be quite honest is a little uncharitable.

I have lived all over the world. I have never seen anyone react adversely to Latin used in the Mass. And to say that I seek out Latin Masses is true, but I have just stumbled upon Latin Masses as well, especially while I was in Israel, and again while I was in London. That's right, London.

So, please don't generalize like that, it isn't a valid argument to say that people just won't understand. It has been my experience that people do understand. That is one of the great things about being human, we can reason and we live on more than just instinct. We can and do learn.

So, do a little looking around and you'll see that the use of Latin isn't so far fetched. Plus, you should get used to the idea that you'll be hearing more of it, as Summorum Pontificorum is being implemented, Latin the Ordinary form will be used more and more. The writing is on the wall....it makes understanding the nuances of the Extraordinary form easier to grasp.....

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='dominicansoul' post='1620610' date='Aug 7 2008, 07:02 PM']And, again, I find it hard to swallow that we are much better off now than we have been before...again...if it wasn't messed up...why "fix" it. The polls show even the drastic drop in Mass attendance. I do blame the vernacular, because it changed the whole face of the Mass...and the way we Worship the Almighty God. With Latin, there was no room for mis-interpretation, or adding personal changes, and just the whole ho-hum attitude of Catholics toward the Mass...

..we are the 25% who have a grasp on what it all means....and although I am not dis-agreeing with everything you have pointed out....I have submitted these points to answer the topics question.[/quote]

Well, I think we all agree that Latin should be encouraged and I don't think any of us are under the false impression that Vatican II discourged the use of Latin. I'm sure the change to Novus Ordo discouraged some people from attending Mass, but it clearly isn't the only reason. The Catholic Church isn't working in a vaccuum from the rest of society.

Another very important factor to consider is [i]Humanae Vitae[/i] because it marks the moment when a large number of American Catholics publicly broke from obedience to the Church to follow their own standard of sexual morality. Since then, lay Catholics have no longer been able to rely on a community that valued obedience at all costs, and disobedience on one doctrine or another has become acceptable (if not expected, because disobedience is how today's society expresses individuality and freedom).

Maybe Mass in the vernacular has encouraged these attitudes more than I give it credit for. It's impossible to know for sure just because so many other things changed during the same time period.

[Cam42]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1621244' date='Aug 8 2008, 07:49 AM']Well, I think we all agree that Latin should be encouraged and I don't think any of us are under the false impression that Vatican II discourged the use of Latin. I'm sure the change to Novus Ordo discouraged some people from attending Mass, but it clearly isn't the only reason. The Catholic Church isn't working in a vaccuum from the rest of society.

Another very important factor to consider is [i]Humanae Vitae[/i] because it marks the moment when a large number of American Catholics publicly broke from obedience to the Church to follow their own standard of sexual morality. Since then, lay Catholics have no longer been able to rely on a community that valued obedience at all costs, and disobedience on one doctrine or another has become acceptable (if not expected, because disobedience is how today's society expresses individuality and freedom).

Maybe Mass in the vernacular has encouraged these attitudes more than I give it credit for. It's impossible to know for sure just because so many other things changed during the same time period.[/quote]

You are right, we should agree that Latin should be encouraged, mainly because it is the will of the Church to do so. Not opinion, fact. That is for those that think that I am just passing my personal thoughts along. On that, I am not.

And the move to the Novus Ordo had very little to do with the mini-exodus of the 1960s. Incidentally, the Church has grown significantly since the 1960's, so that argument won't really hold water either. What triggered the mini-exodus was, quite simply, an era of social, theological, and moral dissent.

I think that LF makes a valid point about Humanae Vitae, but seriously, I don't even think that the dissent of Humanae Vitae is a contributing factor. Since the changes of the 1960s, the Church has continued to grow and is still strong.

However, not much of this has to do with the use of Latin in the Mass. As I have shown, the use of Latin is to be preserved. Latin was never to be completely eliminated. When it comes to the Liturgy, the lack of catechesis is the most stifling thing that is out there. If the priests and bishops would simply do what the Church asks (from a universal point of view....remember, we are Catholics in America NOT American Catholics...a subtle distinction, I know, but an important one.), then Latin wouldn't seem so daunting. Not that it is anyways. Really, the language isn't all that hard to understand.

[LouisvilleFan]

How has the Church grown? Catholics are still about 25% of the American population today, virtually unchanged over the past 50 years. Hispanic immigration has provided just enough numbers to make up for the exodus of European Catholics, and even many of them are leaving the faith. I think we are merely holding our own overall... neither growing nor shrinking.

[Cam42]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1621260' date='Aug 8 2008, 08:12 AM']How has the Church grown? Catholics are still about 25% of the American population today, virtually unchanged over the past 50 years. Hispanic immigration has provided just enough numbers to make up for the exodus of European Catholics, and even many of them are leaving the faith. I think we are merely holding our own overall... neither growing nor shrinking.[/quote]

[quote]The number of Catholics in the world is increasing, if not by much: they were 1.31 billion in 2006, an increase of 1.4% compared to the 1.15 billion in 2005. And there is a continuation of the trend that since 2000 has seen an increase in the number of priests, both diocesan and religious, who went from 406,411 in 2005 to 407,262 in 2006, an overall change of 0.21%. These are some of the figures contained in the Annuario Pontificio for 2008, presented this morning by the pope.

Observing the presence of Catholics in relation to the number of the inhabitants of the various continents, it can be noted that Catholics make up 14% of the population of the population of the Americas, while the Americas have 49.8% of Catholics in the world. Catholics make up just a slightly smaller percentage of Europe's population, but its importance in the Catholic world is clearly lower than that of the American countries (25%). The proportion of Catholics in Asia is at 10.5%, lower than the continent's percentage of the world population, which is at around 61%.

But the trend of the number of priests present in Asia is on the rise. Observing the distribution of priests by region, in fact, one can observe a decline in the presence of priests in Europe and America compared to Africa and Asia. In terms of percentage, in fact, while in 2000 the overall number of priests working in Europe and the Americas represented 81% of the total, in 2006 they dropped to 78%. The most striking positive variation is seen in Africa, where the proportion of priests in 2006 stood at around 8% of the worldwide total. In Asia, too, the number of priests moved higher, passing from 43,566 in 2000 to 51,281 in 2006.

There has also been growth in the number of those preparing for the priesthood. There are 115,480 students of philosophy and theology in the diocesan or religious seminaries, an increase of 0.9% compared to the previous year; 24,034 are in Africa, 37,150 in the Americas, 30,702 in Asia, 22,618 in Europe, and 976 in Oceania. (VIS; 29 Feb 2008)[/quote]

At the death of Pope Paul VI in 1978, there were approximately 683 million Catholics worldwide. Now, I am not a fan of throwing out a bunch of stats, as previously stated, but honestly, the Church is growing and has not slowed down since the 1960s.

Let's not get off track though...this is about the use of Latin in the Mass, not how many Catholics are or are not in the world.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Cam42' post='1621273' date='Aug 8 2008, 11:36 AM']At the death of Pope Paul VI in 1978, there were approximately 683 million Catholics worldwide. Now, I am not a fan of throwing out a bunch of stats, as previously stated, but honestly, the Church is growing and has not slowed down since the 1960s.

Let's not get off track though...this is about the use of Latin in the Mass, not how many Catholics are or are not in the world.[/quote]

Pro-creation is wonderful, but we need to grow through evangelism and conversion.

With [url="http://www.infoplease.com/year/1978.html#world"]4.302 billion[/url] people in the world in 1978, it was 15.9% Catholic then. Today there are about [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population_estimates"]6.7 billion[/url] people and 1.1 billion Catholics, or 16.4%.

Edited August 8, 2008 by LouisvilleFan

[Cam42]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1621307' date='Aug 8 2008, 09:45 AM']Pro-creation is wonderful, but we need to grow through evangelism and conversion.

With [url="http://www.infoplease.com/year/1978.html#world"]4.302 billion[/url] people in the world in 1978, it was 15.9% Catholic then. Today there are about [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population_estimates"]6.7 billion[/url] people and 1.1 billion Catholics, or 16.4%.[/quote]

Still growth....again, what does this have to do with the use of Latin in the Liturgy? Unless you want to make the case that as a universal binder, it would be a good thing for the 1.1 billion Catholics.....

And btw, if we properly catechize those who are attending Mass, won't they be able to spread that seed even moreso and do the evangelization that you are asking? I think so.

By the way, properly speaking we should only evangelize those who are not Christian, we should catechize those who are.....but I am sure that is what you were getting at.....correct?

[running the race]

This thread breaks my heart. Here we are arguing (you could call it debating, but I think we've begun to drift away from presenting factual arguments and are now just arguing) when we are supposed to be one family, one body in Christ. Now I can't help but wonder if this is what turns some people away from Catholicism, what appears to be a lack of unity in what should be a universal family (come to think of it, I've been told this). Instead of arguing, we should be building the family of God up. So, may I make a suggestion? Instead of arguing without a purpose let's try and teach each other something. Anybody that goes to the Tridentine Mass, please begin to share your experiences and maybe teach those that go the Novus Ordo something that would help when attending Mass in Latin. Those that attend the Novus Ordo Mass, please share you experiences, if you find it respectful, and what you gain from using the vernacular. I think we need one more part to this discussion, how can we catechize Catholics so that whether you attend the Tridentine Mass or the Novus Ordo, we all truly understand what is happening?

I guess I'll go first. I've attended the Novus Ordo my whole life. I would love to attend a Tridentine Mass, but haven't yet had the oppurtunity. I have experienced a few poorly celebrated Masses in my day, but for the most part I find them very respectful. I was blessed to grow up in a wonderful parish. I read through the readings every week before Mass and spend time praying through them. It really helps when I get to Mass. I find that the same words we hear every week take on a slightly different meaning and affect me in a different way. It's like God takes every part of the Mass and uses it to teach me what I need to know. I think this is wear using the vernacular helps. You tend to pick up the little things when the language being spoken is you first language. I will have to admit that using Latin at certain points during the Mass helps me worship God in a deeper way, and I look forward to seeing more of it. As for teaching the faith, if the priest has not taken the initiative, why can't we step up and suggest to our priest that a program be started (maybe cd's on every part of the Mass like I read earlier, or a question and answer section in the bulletin, or small groups that meet on a regular basis). I'm not exactly sure how all the details would work out, but it's someplace to start.

Can somebody teach me about the Tridentine Mass?

[KOIfriend]

There's something that just says creepy when some prays in a language I don't understand.

Paul said he would rather speak one word with understanding, and a thousand words in a different tongue.

What do people learn about God if a priest talks in Latin? Do we really know what he is saying when he is talking in Latin? That just creeps me out.

Certainly, that is against Apostolic Tradition of speaking with understanding!

[Selah]

[quote]There's something that just says creepy when some prays in a language I don't understand.[/quote]

So...anyone who doesn't pray in English is creepy?

[KOIfriend]

[quote name='Selah' post='1622180' date='Aug 8 2008, 11:32 PM']So...anyone who doesn't pray in English is creepy?[/quote]

LOL!

Nice try, I won't fall for that one , [url="http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/nitpick.htm"]Nit Picker[/url]

[img]http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/Assets/nitpick.jpg[/img]

[Selah]

So, are you gonna address anything we ask you, or just post pretty pictures in response to someone who you don't agree with?