If Abortion Becomes Illegal

[dairygirl4u2c]

well, i only say it, given that i've been around a long time,,, and that's the concensus around these parts, here at phatmass and the interent, that it's not definitely taught. even amoung the good catholics. if you notice winchester or whatever,,, he said that it's an open question too.

as for sources, it'd be easier for you to prove the positive than for me to prove the negative.
plus you're the one who made the claim that the CC teaches it, before i claimed it didn't, so. i think you should be the source finder.

i'm mostly just content on speculative theorlogy irregardless of what it teaches. curious as to what it teaches, but it doesn't concern me as much. if you can show it, i'd be happy to consider their teaching as they are a respctable body, the CC.

[dairygirl4u2c]

the historic idea is that abortion is a sin, not necessarily murder. that would indicate that it's probably not necessarily ensouled yet, the historic view.
from this, you'd think the modern view is the same, i've heard ithat it is explicitly. maybe i'll look it up cant be too hard to find.

In the fifth century a.d., St. Augustine expressed the mainstream view that early abortion required penance only for sexual sin. Eight centuries later, St. Thomas Aquinas agreed, saying abortion was not homicide unless the fetus was "ensouled," and ensoulment, he was sure, occurred well after conception. The position that abortion is a serious sin akin to murder and is grounds for excommunication only became established 150 years ago.

[dairygirl4u2c]

that's another good point too..

if it's possibly not ensouled... are we going to treat it the same as someone who's surely ensouled?


[quote]1588: Abortion's Penalty Becomes Excommunication

Concerned about prostitution in Rome, Pope Sixtus V issued the bull Effraenatam (Without Restraint) and applied to both contraception and abortion, at any stage of pregnancy, the penalty designated for homicide: excommunication. There was no exception for therapeutic abortion.6

1591: Rules Quickly Relaxed

Only three years after Pope Sixtus V issued Effraenatam, he died. His successor, Gregory XIV, felt Sixtus's stand was too harsh and was in conflict with penitential practices and theological views on ensoulment. He issuedSedes Apostolica, which advised church officials, "where no homicide or no animated fetus is involved, not to punish more strictly than the sacred canons or civil legislation does."7 This papal pronouncement lasted until 1869.[/quote]

[dairygirl4u2c]

i could be wrong:
from catholic encyclo

[quote]The embryonic child, as seen above, has a human soul; and therefore is a man from the time of its conception; therefore it has an equal right to its life with its mother; therefore neither the mother, nor medical practitioner, nor any human being whatever can lawfully take that life away.[/quote]

a lot of peple here are wrong too apaprently.

[HisChildForever]

[quote]it's basically a heart and a little exra stuff. a heart isn't a person, that's common sense.[/quote]

Perhaps "a heart and a little extra stuff" isn't a full-bodied person like you and me, but it's [b]going to be[/b] a full-bodied person, the egg has been fertilized, the ball is rolling, the development is happening. You're [b]stopping[/b] this natural growth, this development into a full-bodied person, from occuring when you have an abortion. (Note: I'm using the general "you" here, just to make sure there's no confusion.) You are murdering a human being.

I'm just really curious, but what is your stance on abortion? I'm not sure if you're simply playing the devil's advocate simply for discussion purposes, or if you're "pro-choice."

[dairygirl4u2c]

i'm prolife.

i'm playing the devil's advocate.

but i'm also making the case that i don't think having an abortion the day after conception deserves the same punishment as first degree murder.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1618304' date='Aug 5 2008, 03:27 PM']but i'm also making the case that i don't think having an abortion the day after conception deserves the same punishment as first degree murder.[/quote]

Which is why there would be a trial, an investigation, etc.

[MissScripture]

Interesting fact to throw in: If you disturb (not even destory, just disturb) sea turtle eggs, you can be punished by law.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='MissScripture' post='1618338' date='Aug 5 2008, 04:11 PM']Interesting fact to throw in: If you disturb (not even destory, just disturb) sea turtle eggs, you can be punished by law.[/quote]

I did that once when I was younger, but by complete accident. I think they were regular turtle eggs, though.

[MissScripture]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1618339' date='Aug 5 2008, 03:12 PM']I did that once when I was younger, but by complete accident. I think they were regular turtle eggs, though.[/quote]
Well, the only sea turtle eggs I've "seen" (I really just saw the nest) had caution tape around them and the little notice that disturbing them was punishable by law (hence how I knew that).

I just find it interesting that the eggs of a sea turtle are protected (baby sea turtles that aren't born yet), but a baby that hasn't been born yet isn't protected...

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1618273' date='Aug 5 2008, 01:43 PM']i could be wrong:
from catholic encyclo
a lot of peple here are wrong too apaprently.[/quote]

with that said though... the ocnsensus here and on the interenst is that it's undefined in the CC.
this could be something that's only sorta defined, ordinary magistrium or whathaveryou, like the idea that you can't or very rarely should do capital punishment.
an orthodox person might be able to dispute the idea tht there's a soul, much like a person for capital punishment might.
it all goes back to the papal statements that make the catho encyclopedia etc. and the level of definition.
the catechism is silent on it i think it looks like.

[mortify]

The point is making abortions illegal would cause too many problems... so status quo it is!

[XIX]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1618352' date='Aug 5 2008, 05:31 PM']the catechism is silent on it i think it looks like.[/quote]
[quote]CCC 1711: Endowed with a spiritual soul, with intellect and with free will, the human person is [b]from his very conception[/b] ordered to God and destined for eternal beatitude. He pursues his perfection in "seeking and loving what is true and good."[/quote]

Emphasis added.

[fides quarens intellectum]

[quote name='mortify' post='1618360' date='Aug 5 2008, 03:39 PM']The point is making abortions illegal would cause too many problems... so status quo it is![/quote]

Exactly what i was thinking - just a scare tactic.

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote name='XIX' post='1618395' date='Aug 5 2008, 04:41 PM']Emphasis added.[/quote]

i stand corrected as per the catechism. i am still not the only one here, even amongst the good catholics, who had error.
andit still could be said... to be not binding. remember,,,, people dispute the death penalty stuff in the catechism. an orthodox person could dispute this issue too. that it's ensouled the whole time isn't historical.
the actual papal statements need looked at.