Older Vocations

[jkaands]

This from one of Gemma's Yahoo! groups:

a final profession at the Sisters of St. Rita, a small habited congregation near Milwaukee, WI

[url="http://www.sistersofstrita.org/Page_12_Images.asp"]http://www.sistersofstrita.org/Page_12_Images.asp[/url]

She has to be in her sixties!

[shadowedseraph]

It looks like it was a beautiful ceremony and hurrah for an order that accepts older vocations!

[jkaands]

[quote name='shadowedseraph' post='1616982' date='Aug 4 2008, 10:49 AM']It looks like it was a beautiful ceremony and hurrah for an order that accepts older vocations![/quote]

I think that more and more orders are doing this, or at least considering them and not refusing them out of hand.

I get the feeling that the ground is shifting virtually by the month.

[gloriagurl]

[quote name='jkaands' post='1616990' date='Aug 4 2008, 12:56 PM']I think that more and more orders are doing this, or at least considering them and not refusing them out of hand.

I get the feeling that the ground is shifting virtually by the month.[/quote]

jkaands,

Would you be willing to share a little bit more about your impression? I ask only because it has been my impression (and it could easily be misinformed) that the ground is shifting but in the opposite direction of what you are experiencing. It seems to me that a few years back, far more (esp "traditional" communities) were accepting older vocations and now they seem so few and far between - at least to me - in fact I do know some discerners who feel that they in some ways are just a "bit too late" because they've been told...well, a few years ago we accepted women up to "such and such" an age but know we have lowered our age limit because of "unfavorable" results (not sure how else to put that).

I may be missing something and would certainly appreciate it if you could expand on what data/information/experiences are the "cause" for your impression that more communities are accepting older vocations.

I hope this doesn't sound "challenging" - it's not my intent to challenge you or give the impression that I doubt you.......I'd really like to know - seems like good news to me and I just HATE <wink>to be uninformed where good news is concerned. Thanks.

Peace

[TradMom]

Praised be Jesus Christ!
This is a lovely order that has very strong roots outside of the United States. As we have discussed so often, orders that are not "American" seem so much more open to mature vocations.
Gloriagurl, I see both sides of this. Some communities seem to be more willing to "consider" mature vocations and not reject them out of hand, while others are closing ranks and refusing to discuss the age issue at all. A couple of communities I know, sadly, are very firm in their cut-off age.
I will give some concrete examples, and in this, for this moment, I will only discuss cloistered communities for that is where my knowledge rests....many Carmels (traditional in full habit) are open to discussing mature women, most Benedictine monasteries will consider women of all ages - even if they have a cut-off age, the Benedictines in Vermont (Solesmes) and Regina Laudis are two that immediately come to mind that do not hold age restrictions, the PCC's vary - the Cleveland Monastery is open whilst others might not be, and then there are our lovely Visitations, who hold no age requirements, per their spirituality.
In my personal research and experience, I have found that the "newer" communities are the most restrictive, especially the communities that have been founded in this country. I believe there are very specific reasons as to why this is true and I would be happy to bring my thoughts to another thread or discuss it privately with anyone who is interested.
I have strong opinions about this matter, I have carefully looked into this particular issue and I could write a paper about it at this point.
In short, and back to your question, I believe that some of the communities that are beginning to consider mature women are doing so because they have seen the value and faithfulness in a quality vocation. Women are living longer and are healthier than ever before. Mature women come to the Monastery or Abbey with experience, free of debt and the ability to make mature decisions; they have worked in the world and are used to following directions, being uncomfortable and taking responsibility for themselves. These are valuable vocations. A young person does not guarantee faithfulness or even perseverance. Some communities with strict age restrictions have a large turn over (as in women coming and going) and this has affected the overall communal experience of religious life.
If a community says that mature women do not adapt well to their life, then one must look very seriously at the kind of life they are living. Are their postulants respected as individuals or are they looking for girls to regress into child-like behavior, dependent on Mother? Holy obedience is said to be the most difficult of all the vows. Who better to live out this vow than a woman who has been independent and self sufficient? She has already lived obedience (and most likely poverty at one time or another...and certainly chastity!) She has been obedient to her work schedule, boss, and responsibilities. Somewhere on this forum is an excellent post that Laudem once gave us - outlining these very points. (Much better than I can at this time.)
As a Church and a people, we represent the Body of Christ and a family. In both images, there is room for all. Not all can be the feet or the heart or even the brain. We would not be able exist without the other. In my opinion, like a good family, a healthy and strong community is open to women with different life experiences; regardless of age. Again, I can speak of our special daughter. What most people would consider a terrible burden (to the point of making sure to avoid such a child...through murder!) we have found great joy and happiness; a blessing in ways we cannot count. If I had had to sit down and imagine my family before our children came, I can honestly say that I doubt I would have chosen such a child; I believe I would have been fearful and clearly, at that time, I was horribly undereducated. But God knew what He was doing, and He blessed us!
As communities sit down and imagine what they want as they begin their foundation, they too are filled with great and grand ideas of the perfect group...young, strong, healthy, thin, pretty, smart, obedient, faithful women! But as my husband says...you can have one but not all! Together, in Christ, a great community cab complete that original vision.
Ok! Enough from me. This was supposed to be a quick answer, but you see how important this is to me. Please PM me for specifics if anyone would like more information from my own experience.
In Him, as always,
TradMom

Edited August 6, 2008 by TradMom

[jkaands]

[quote name='gloriagurl' post='1617003' date='Aug 4 2008, 11:08 AM']jkaands,

Would you be willing to share a little bit more about your impression? I ask only because it has been my impression (and it could easily be misinformed) that the ground is shifting but in the opposite direction of what you are experiencing. It seems to me that a few years back, far more (esp "traditional" communities) were accepting older vocations and now they seem so few and far between - at least to me - in fact I do know some discerners who feel that they in some ways are just a "bit too late" because they've been told...well, a few years ago we accepted women up to "such and such" an age but know we have lowered our age limit because of "unfavorable" results (not sure how else to put that).

I may be missing something and would certainly appreciate it if you could expand on what data/information/experiences are the "cause" for your impression that more communities are accepting older vocations.

I hope this doesn't sound "challenging" - it's not my intent to challenge you or give the impression that I doubt you.......I'd really like to know - seems like good news to me and I just HATE <wink>to be uninformed where good news is concerned. Thanks.

Peace[/quote]

Well, it’s an impression I have by surveying many religious orders (for women--haven’t done the men), especially the non-habited orders.

Now, Phat has a prejudice against these orders, because of allegations against them for ‘new agey’ practices, which may have been practiced by some; for the fact that many don’t wear a habit, although I suspect that most do wear something identifiable, and anyway most everyone who works around them know that they’re sisters; and because many of these orders probably have abandoned some religious practices, such as the rosary, which were never central to their spirituality. I am speaking mainly of the Benedictines, who follow the spirit of a rule written in the 6th century.

The ‘new’ orders which are so famous for All Those Postulants--a handful of orders--can ‘afford’ not to consider an older vocation. I am not certain that their spirituality and formation is suited to an older applicant.

--but search patiently and diligently through large, shrinking, older unhabited orders, and a number of small orders like St. Rita, and a few full habited orthodox cloistered orders, and you’ll find them---members in formation who are in their 50’s on up. The UK is full of them, in virtually all orders. Maybe also Ireland.

If I were looking for an order to join as an older applicant, or one with health issues, I would devise a strategy and pursue the search with it. First of all, I would get the Guide to Religious Ministries and (access to) a fast internet connection and start searching--probably with a card file or some internet tool to keep track of everyone--no small task. For example, if you are looking at congregations with several provinces, such as the Daughters of Charity and Sisters of St. Joseph, if your closest province says no, you could check with the other provinces. All those Benedictines/Dominicans/Franciscans, including those with the same origins, or who are closely related, such as the Dominicans of Akron/Cleveland/Columbus/Springfield. You may not be able to tell the difference among them, but these differences do exist, and one of them will be their upper age limits, if any.

Cloistered orders tend to have independent houses, so if you’re interested in the cloistered Dominicans or Discalced Carmelites, you should inquire of each house, if you initially receive a no from your first choices. All of this assumes that you are interested in the charism and its mode of expression in the house you’re applying to.

Another strategy is to visit the house you’re interested in, or become as oblate or affiliate with the community. Personal impressions are important. You may be 55 going on 45. You may have excellent reasons for not being able to enter earlier, such as being the sole support of your aged parents. Once an order gets to know you, they may change their mind.

I suspect that many orders say ‘no’ because they have enough applicants or interest now--but this can change overnight. Also if they encounter applicants they really don’t think are suitable, they can use age as an excuse. Even religious like to take the easy way out now and then.

You may have been refused years ago. It wouldn’t hurt to re-apply, strange as that sounds. Policies change. An order might be favorably impressed by your persistence and, at any rate, they may be forced to at least consider the older applicant.

If the website, says ‘18-35’ no exceptions, you have your answer. If it says “18-40, exceptions are sometimes made”, this means that 55 is probably out. If the website either doesn't mention an upper age limit or says, “18-55, exceptions are sometimes made”, then go for it.

Discerners on phat don’t talk about the ‘updated’ orders, as many of them are interested only in the habited or so-called ‘trad’ communities. So there is little attention paid to the profession images of these congregations, which often show older candidates. I post them when I find them. Sometimes you have to search a website for pictures of its profession ceremonies, I find. The rapidly growing orders who have a prominent media presence, post their pictures front and center, but I find that many other orders don't--I can't say why. They are often buried in the newsletters, which often take time to download.

There is always interest on phat in the Discalced Carmelites. Lots of discussion of 1990 vs.1991 constitutions. Not much interest in those members of the ‘updated’ CCA communities, Carmelite Communities Associated. But these orders appear to me to also have a full expression of Carmelite spirituality, at least judging from their websites. pray4Carmel has spent time with one of them, the Cleveland Carmel, and loved them. [url="http://www.ccacarmels.org/"]http://www.ccacarmels.org/[/url]

Praying4Carmel--Nancy-- has just gone through an intensive discernment and is planning to enter the Rockford OSB’s--no secret here. Her age falls into the ‘older’ vocation category. Interested parties might PM her for more details re her experiences. Her final 3 were all ‘updated’ orders one may wear a modified habit.

tradMom, WRITE THAT PAPER and I will read it!!!

[gloriagurl]

[quote name='jkaands' post='1619731' date='Aug 6 2008, 09:07 PM']Well, it’s an impression I have by surveying many religious orders (for women--haven’t done the men), especially the non-habited orders.[/quote]

Thanks for the reply jkaands...seems you've done a lot more looking around than I and your "research" though possibly informal is certainly varied.

Trandmom, I'd read that paper too.

[Rising_Suns]

Ave Maria. Thank you posting the links and the good points made thus far.

I was listening to an EWTN radio interview of the Marist Fathers the other day, and the superior explained that part of the reason why they have an age limit is because they had gotten "burned" too many times in the past. He did not go into too much detail about what he meant by that. However, he did say that based on their experience, most older people who think they have a vocation end up leaving because they were too set in their habits, could not be formed, and the conflict caused too much of a disruption to the community.

It appears these communities feel the disruption/risk is too great to the community for only, say, 1 out of 100 to have a true vocation. Perhaps we underestimate just how many people today find themselves alone later in life, and may seek to fill a certain emptiness by entering religious life, perhaps more so than younger people. What adds to the complexity of this, is that most older people today grew up through the cultural revolution of the 1960's and tend to have a distorted view of the Catholic Church, and have difficulties particularly with the vow of [b]obedience[/b]. Rather than submit to authority, there is a tendency to be combative about certain rules that they may not agree with (perhaps even this rule on age).

I am by no means an expert on this subject, but I would venture to say that a genuine sign of a late vocation is someone who possesses the spirit of [i]obedience[/i]; who accepts the rules of certain communities without bitterness or complaint, and does not try to reform them, but instead does what she can in humble and earnest attempt to follow the will of God (In either care, the age limit is not a hard set rule, and the superior does have the authority to make exceptions).

The Saints have said that obedience is the greatest of the three vows. According to the Saints, a religious who lacks the spirit of obedience will waste their lives in spiritual tepidity, and may even bring judgment upon themselves by hindering the souls of those around them.

(I apologize if this is too far off topic)

Edited August 7, 2008 by Rising_Suns

[jkaands]

[quote name='Rising_Suns' post='1619870' date='Aug 6 2008, 09:59 PM']Ave Maria. Thank you posting the links and the good points made thus far.

I was listening to an EWTN radio interview of the Marist Fathers the other day, and the superior explained that part of the reason why they have an age limit is because they had gotten "burned" too many times in the past. He did not go into too much detail about what he meant by that. However, he did say that based on their experience, most older people who think they have a vocation end up leaving because they were too set in their habits, could not be formed, and the conflict caused too much of a disruption to the community.

It appears these communities feel the disruption/risk is too great to the community for only, say, 1 out of 100 to have a true vocation. Perhaps we underestimate just how many people today find themselves alone later in life, and may seek to fill a certain emptiness by entering religious life, perhaps more so than younger people. What adds to the complexity of this, is that most older people today grew up through the cultural revolution of the 1960's and tend to have a distorted view of the Catholic Church, and have difficulties particularly with the vow of [b]obedience[/b]. Rather than submit to authority, there is a tendency to be combative about certain rules that they may not agree with (perhaps even this rule on age).

I am by no means an expert on this subject, but I would venture to say that a genuine sign of a late vocation is someone who possesses the spirit of [i]obedience[/i]; who accepts the rules of certain communities without bitterness or complaint, and does not try to reform them, but instead does what she can in humble and earnest attempt to follow the will of God (In either care, the age limit is not a hard set rule, and the superior does have the authority to make exceptions).

The Saints have said that obedience is the greatest of the three vows. According to the Saints, a religious who lacks the spirit of obedience will waste their lives in spiritual tepidity, and may even bring judgment upon themselves by hindering the souls of those around them.

(I apologize if this is too far off topic)[/quote]

Not off topic.

My exhortation to perform a [i]thorough [/i]search is based on the notion that the discerner is not going to [i]argue[/i] with an order's vocation director or superior. No means no for whatever reason. This is why I would do a thorough search of communities, to try to find one that won't say no, and to consider affiliating with a group one really likes, in hopes, but without a guarantee, that the order might change its mind.

[TradMom]

Praised be Jesus Christ!

No, Risings Suns, you are not off topic. Actually, you have repeated very clearly and well what seems to be the most common reason that communities give in explaining why they employ strict age restrictions. Like Jkaands, I would not recommend fighting or arguing with a Vocation Director. I also recommend doing a thorough search of the various orders before contacting them; the communities that hold fast to the age restriction make that very clear and seem to be quite comfortable in expressing their choice to not discuss it further.

I think there are many misconceptions about why a person would enter religious life later in their life. Tonight, we had dinner with a dear friend who announced he is preparing to enter the Seminary. He is in his fifties, and I believe he will be an excellent priest. He spoke of feeling the call to the priesthood for a long time and burying it; ignoring it and not believing it. Finally, he said, he had to admit that God was indeed asking this of him. I am sure you have read the Hound of Heaven. This image of being chased by God fits many people's experiences; even, as you know, St. Augustine spoke of this feeling of being chased....and finally being caught. What a great saint he was for our Church! Sometimes a person experiences a

[TradMom]

Praised be Jesus Christ!

No, Risings Suns, you are not off topic. Actually, you have repeated very clearly and well what seems to be the most common reason that communities give in explaining why they employ strict age restrictions. Like Jkaands, I would not recommend fighting or arguing with a Vocation Director. I also recommend doing a thorough search of the various orders before contacting them; the communities that hold fast to the age restriction make that very clear and seem to be quite comfortable in expressing their choice to not discuss it further.

I think there are many misconceptions about why a person would enter religious life later in their life. Tonight, we had dinner with a dear friend who announced he is preparing to enter the Seminary. He is in his fifties, and I believe he will be an excellent priest. He spoke of feeling the call to the priesthood for a long time and burying it; ignoring it and not believing it. Finally, he said, he had to admit that God was indeed asking this of him. I am sure you have read the Hound of Heaven. This image of being chased by God fits many people's experiences; even, as you know, St. Augustine spoke of this feeling of being chased....and finally being caught. What a great saint he was for our Church! Sometimes a person experiences a conversion; other times life experience leads one to the place of wanting to serve. Since we are not in a black and white world, and there are a million shades of gray, everybody's story is different.

Many communities, dear Risings Suns, employ formation that is more appropriate for younger people. This has nothing to do with one's ability to be obedient, but has everything to do with respect and dignity. Yes, you are right, the Church as well as society, has undergone great and significant changes in the past forty years. Women no longer expect to get married right out of high school or college; the job market has opened up for us - we now can be something other than teachers, nurses and secretaries - and we are experiencing a new level of independence that was previously unknown to women in general. Formation for women who have been raised in this current world (or more specifically for women who have worked in this current world) out of common sense must be very different than the style of formation that was used for very inexperienced and dependent women of a different era. As a woman, I do not believe that men have undergone such a radical change in their social status.

To think that a woman who has lived her life as a single person suddenly finds herself lonely and wanting to fill an emptiness by entering the convent is truly bizarre. Anybody who seriously considers religious life (not the romantic version) knows that it is a life filled with struggles, challenges and very hard work. It is not a place for retirement or romantic walks through a flower-filled cloister.

There are many, many saints who spoke up when they saw an injustice. Too many to name but I will throw a few out to you...Catherine of Siena, Thomas More, Joan of Arc, Francis of Assisi, Philippine, Elizabeth of Hungary, Elizabeth of Russia...there are many saints who experienced conversion and later life vocations (or second vocations as some have called it)...again, too many to name but I will list a few...Augustine, Teresa, Patrick, Benedict, Bruno, Anthony of Padua, Elizabeth of Hungary (again), Jane Francis, Mother Cabrini, Blessed Teresa, Elizabeth Seton, Cornelia Connelly and many, many more.

We are the Catholic Church and we are made up of many people; yes we have a Holy Father, but we also have councils and we are ever evolving. We are not a cult that does not tolerate questioning or conversation, and finding an injustice in a system does not mean that someone is being combative or not obedient. It means they are thinking with the brain God gave them.

In response to the communities that have gotten "burned," I wonder what indeed that means. Part of the formation of religious life is the opportunity to test one's vocation, to live as a postulant, novice and junior professed. Leaving an order does mean that one has failed, but in fact that one has succeeded in discovering that God has other plans for him or her.

I would invite you to consider something. We already know that England and Ireland do not have the same age restrictions that some of the orders in the United States uses. Traditional, formal, fully recognized monasteries and abbeys are able to deal with the formation of "mature" women. If mature women were truly unable to live the live and be "formed" why is that they can go to Europe and fare well?

I agree with you in using the saints as the ultimate example of Christian life (after Christ Himself). In looking at the lives of the saints, some of our greatest saints, we see many vocations rolled into one person and we see their outstanding ability to be truly whatever God called them to be. Benedict was quite comfortable in his cave; had he stayed in his hermit life we would not have Western Monastic life as we know it today. The Holy Spirit is mysterious and not always easy to understand.

We have dicussed this forever on this board and it has been the cause of a lot of arguments and problems. I certainly do not want to fuel the already raging fire. My opinion is my opinion. A community can do whatever they want within reason. If a Mother Prioress, Abbess, Superior - whatever - decides she wants only 22 year olds, that is her choice (along with the council). Personally, I am very wary of communities that do not have success in providing formation for women whom have lived as independent adults and I would not recommend entering a community that is focused only on youth. Again, this is my single and solitary opinion, based on my own life experience - with my sister who entered a European convent and was a beautiful nun, and with my two daughters who are pursuing vocations.

Risings Suns, I wish you peace as you journey towards God. May your heart be a heart of tender love and compassionate care God unfolds His plans for you.

TradMom

[gloriagurl]

[quote name='jkaands' post='1619936' date='Aug 7 2008, 01:02 AM']Not off topic.

My exhortation to perform a [i]thorough [/i]search is based on the notion that the discerner is not going to [i]argue[/i] with an order's vocation director or superior. No means no for whatever reason. This is why I would do a thorough search of communities, to try to find one that won't say no, and to consider affiliating with a group one really likes, in hopes, but without a guarantee, that the order might change its mind.[/quote]

Point well taken jkaands......I would agree for anyone in the process of discernment...these are wise words.

Peace

[jkaands]

...to continue The Chronicles of Older Vocations, here's:

www.benethillmonastery.org

Benet Hill Benedictines

in Colorado Springs. They are 'updated'. They ran an academy in town and a retreat center in the mountains. From the website, I gather that they still own the academy, which closed a number of years ago, but rent it out to a charter school, among other things. Their main work and residence is their large lovely retreat center in the mountains, where they run a number of programs in spirituality. I think that this charism is ideally suited to the Benedictines, as it combines so well with the Office and their traditions in education.

Their re-invention has taken them some time, but now I think is complete. They have a candidate and a solemn profession in July 2008, buried on page 8 of their most recent newsletter May-Spring 2008. I would guess that she's in her 50's.

[jkaands]

Another overlooked order for older vocations is the Benedictines of Jesus Crucified.

[url="http://www.benedictinesjc.org/"]http://www.benedictinesjc.org/[/url]

They were founded in 1920 in France specifically for those with physical disabilities or frailty. There were two houses in the US, now one; the other houses are in France. They wear a nice habit and live in Connecticut.

I think that they would certainly be open to older vocations, seeing age as a sort of 'disability', at least in entering religious life. Their website does not include anything on requirements for entrance. Unfortunately, their website is not very extensive, and from one small picture, they do appear to have a number of sisters in wheelchairs. Their life is monastic and they have retreats.

Has anyone here visited them or know more about them?

Edited August 7, 2008 by jkaands

[littlesister]

The Bendictines of Jesus Crucified, originally the "Sisters of Jesus Crucified," came to the U.S. in the 50's and had two monasteries, one near Philadelphia (where they ran a cytology lab for a long time) and one in Rhode Island. A couple of years ago they settled in what I believe was a former convalescent home in Connecticut. They are the most peaceful, joyful group that anyone could imagine, and their liturgy/singing/Office was perfect.
We have a wonderful friend who has always needed a lot of assistance, but longs for religious life. The Benedictines regretfully declined her application a few years ago because they have had a drop in vocations, and are challenged to care for their present members who are aging and in need of more help.
At least in the beginning, a handful of able-bodied applicants tried their vocation there, but in general found that it was not for them.