Underage Drinking

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='Deb' post='1616931' date='Aug 4 2008, 10:59 AM']Yes it is a sin because it is a violation of the law.

Drunkenness is a sin as evidenced by the bible.

Galatians 5: 19 - 21 The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Luke 21: 34 Jesus said, "Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with dissipation, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you unexpectedly like a trap."


Drunkenness is an offense to God. A person has to be mature to know their own limits. By the very nature of the biological makeup of humans, teenagers, although they can be mature in many ways, are not mature enough to drink responsibily. That does not include all, but most. Most teens have a difficult time making decisions while sober and a much more difficult time when drinking. Drinking is not something that is necessary for any human being and to think that it is, hence thining that not being able to is restrictive, says more about ones reasons for drinking than anything else.

So many of the problems of this world are a result of people thinking that if something they do does not hurt anyone else, it should be allowed. The truth is, that everything you do affects YOU and others, even if it is just between you and God. Christians are called to witness and to be an example of living as Christ lived. Is there anything wrong with a glass of wine with dinner or a drink now and then? No. Is it something you have to have to enjoy life? No.[/quote]


I don't believe that stuff about teenagers at all... It's just a US thing because the teens here mostly drink to get drunk. If it was legal I believe there would be less drunkenness (certainly at my high school there would have been less), and more people learning to control themselves. It is very possible for teens in the US to have a drink and stop there. Teens are not animals, they CAN control themselves. People have the same attitude towards teens regarding sex, and it is a bad attitude in both situations.

I don't think STM is asking whether drunkenness is a sin, he's asking whether underage drinking in moderation is a sin. Also, the law cannot decide what is intrinsically evil and what is not. Many states seem to think that it IS intrinsically evil for people under the age of 21 to have a drink, as it is illegal in some states to even have a drink at home with the family.

I have to disagree with picchick about the underage party... one because I know many people who in high school discussed drinking with their parents, and their parents said that one was okay, and two because it is not intrinsically wrong to drink in moderation. Now that I am out of high school and people are starting to live on their own without their parents, it is certainly their own decision. The catechism says that once children live on their own they are not obliged to obey their parents, only to honor them.

I do believe that drinking with the intention of getting drunk is wrong.

[Deb]

Obedience is one of the Lord's precepts. That includes obedience of the law. So, drinking underage is a sin. Can't get much easier than that.

[LouisvilleFan]

Depends on what state you're in. In some places, the law allows children under 21 to drink in a private home under parental supervision, or similar exclusion.

[Deb]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1617108' date='Aug 4 2008, 02:09 PM']Depends on what state you're in. In some places, the law allows children under 21 to drink in a private home under parental supervision, or similar exclusion.[/quote]


Then that would not be against the law.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Deb' post='1617113' date='Aug 4 2008, 03:11 PM']Then that would not be against the law.[/quote]

Which makes it hard to answer the question. It's like asking if driving over 65 mph is sinful. Depends on the situation.

[MissScripture]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1617123' date='Aug 4 2008, 01:27 PM']Which makes it hard to answer the question. It's like asking if driving over 65 mph is sinful. Depends on the situation.[/quote]
It's not really difficult to answer. Her answer is, if it's against the law, then it's sinful. Therefore, if it's legal for the kids to have alcohol on private property or with a parent, then it's not sinful. That's pretty straightforward if you ask me...

[aalpha1989]

The law is not infallible- we are to follow just laws. My position is that making moderate drinking under the age of 21 is unjust, and therefore we would not be obligated to follow that unjust law.

legality does not equal morality.

[Resurrexi]

Hypothetical situation:

An underage kid is at a party/get-together/hanging out with a few friends. He is worried about drinking not because doing so would be sinful itself (he believes that the drinking age laws are unjust and his parents have given him permission to drink as long as he doesn't get drunk) but that he would be giving scandal by doing so (by demonstrating a mentality of disrespect for the law or making people think he's getting drunk and that's ok). Do you think it would be an appropriate way to keep form giving scandal by informing others around him that he thinks the law is unjust, his parents gave him permission to drink and that he's not going to get drunk?

[Deb]

[quote name='aalpha1989' post='1617155' date='Aug 4 2008, 02:59 PM']The law is not infallible- we are to follow just laws. My position is that making moderate drinking under the age of 21 is unjust, and therefore we would not be obligated to follow that unjust law.

legality does not equal morality.[/quote]

I guess that is why everything is such a mess. Every single person thinks that they are the one who can determine if a law is just or not. Every person thinks that the law should not apply to them. Too many people decided that the rules of the Catholic Church did not apply to them so they made their own churches.
I guess things are pretty much black and white to me because I have made a decision to follow the laws of the Church because I know I am not capable of knowing what God wants for me. I would rather put my trust in those the Holy Spirit have been guiding for 200 years.
Moderate drinking for children serves no purpose at all. It is just a want and not a need. Everyone drank wine in biblical days cuz the water sucked.

[MissScripture]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1617210' date='Aug 4 2008, 03:29 PM']Hypothetical situation:

An underage kid is at a party/get-together/hanging out with a few friends. He is worried about drinking not because doing so would be sinful itself (he believes that the drinking age laws are unjust and his parents have given him permission to drink as long as he doesn't get drunk) but that he would be giving scandal by doing so (by demonstrating a mentality of disrespect for the law or making people think he's getting drunk and that's ok). Do you think it would be an appropriate way to keep form giving scandal by informing others around him that he thinks the law is unjust, his parents gave him permission to drink and that he's not going to get drunk?[/quote]
No, I think that then, the other kids, regardless of if they understand why such laws may be unjust, would run around whining about how unjust the law is, and how they shouldn't have to follow such a law, either.

[Resurrexi]

And if the law is unjust, what's wrong with that?

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='Deb' post='1617212' date='Aug 4 2008, 04:29 PM']I guess that is why everything is such a mess. Every single person thinks that they are the one who can determine if a law is just or not. Every person thinks that the law should not apply to them. Too many people decided that the rules of the Catholic Church did not apply to them so they made their own churches.
I guess things are pretty much black and white to me because I have made a decision to follow the laws of the Church because I know I am not capable of knowing what God wants for me. I would rather put my trust in those the Holy Spirit have been guiding for 200 years.
Moderate drinking for children serves no purpose at all. It is just a want and not a need. Everyone drank wine in biblical days cuz the water sucked.[/quote]

? I AM following the Church's laws, I have not said anything about deciding morality for myself, I think it is objectively unjust for a government to set an age limit such as 21.

I'm using my brain just like you are, according to your logic we are both just making our own rules. I don't believe either of us are, we just have differing opinions of the matter at hand.

I AM following the laws of the Church and my trust is in the Holy Spirit. Honestly I don't really see what your point is.

I guess it depends on what you are calling "children". If you are including teenagers, I would have to respectfully disagree. And you are right, it is a want, not a need, but what right does hte government have to regulate such wants? None at all. The Swiss government banned dancing and card playing (gambling) during the Protestant reformation. Those things are wants and not needs. The government saw them as sinful and frivolous. Would you follow such outrageous laws just because those things are wants and not needs?

I know that alcohol is more dangerous than dancing and card playing, but I am just arguing against your point that alcohol is a want and therefore it does not matter.

I'm not saying that subjectively the law should not apply to me. I'm saying that objectively the law should not exist and is unjust.

[Deb]

Who determines that the law is unjust?
I think paying taxes is unjust but, that doesn't mean I get to skip them.

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1617210' date='Aug 4 2008, 04:29 PM']Hypothetical situation:

An underage kid is at a party/get-together/hanging out with a few friends. He is worried about drinking not because doing so would be sinful itself (he believes that the drinking age laws are unjust and his parents have given him permission to drink as long as he doesn't get drunk) but that he would be giving scandal by doing so (by demonstrating a mentality of disrespect for the law or making people think he's getting drunk and that's ok). Do you think it would be an appropriate way to keep form giving scandal by informing others around him that he thinks the law is unjust, his parents gave him permission to drink and that he's not going to get drunk?[/quote]

No, I don't think he should say that he thinks the law is unjust at a party. I'm assuming tha thte other kids are drinking to get drunk for fun, which would be a mortal sin anyway and which makes the unjust law irrelevant. If it was just hanging out and the other kids had the same opinion of the unjust law and everyone had a drink or two (no drunkenness) then it would be appropriate and scandal woudl most likely be avoided.

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='Deb' post='1617234' date='Aug 4 2008, 04:44 PM']Who determines that the law is unjust?
I think paying taxes is unjust but, that doesn't mean I get to skip them.[/quote]

Paying taxes is not unjust because the government must function and DOES have the right to tax its people to a certain degree. After that point it does become unjust and I don't believe it would objectively be a sin to not pay them. You may be caught and thrown in prison, but if you have no dependants that's not really a big deal, if you're willing to suffer the consequences. It may be subjectively sinful if you do have dependants and cannot risk prison time because you have to take care of them.

You can determine that a law is unjust by using common sense. Catholics can disagree. But please don't tell me that I am not relying on the Holy Spirit or that I am breaking Church law just because we do disagree. Church law and US law are completely seperate things. Do not equate them.