Eucharist Or People?

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1649902' date='Sep 7 2008, 12:33 PM']Words matter, words are powerful, but life is too.
In this situation I wouldn't necessarily be afraid for my own life (well I would, but that's irrelevant at the moment), but I'll bet you the other people are.
You could look at it like living Christ's love. Actions speak louder than words. You can talk all you want about the value of life, but what's the point? Actions must follow words.
Obviously I'm ignoring the whole other side with what I just said; forgive me for that. I'm not awake enough to think of a more clear point.[/quote]
1. You are responsible for your actions
2. Speaking words is indeed an action
3. You are not responsible for others actions
4. You have been enjoined by Christ to witness for Him
5. Assuming you have been confirmed you have specifically been made a soldier of Christ, and have a duty in that regard.
6. Denial of Christ is sin, even if you are not culpable for the sin, do to duress, it is still a sin, a great and abiding evil
7. If evil men decide to do evil things to fight Christ, of what surprise is that, Satan has always done Evil to fight God, they are just following their masters example.
8. By doing the right thing, and refusing to give in to fear and evil, you join with Christ in His suffering, and witness even to those who would kill you. How many have been brought to Christ by witness of the courage and devotion of His followers even in the face of Death.

Edited September 7, 2008 by Don John of Austria

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1650044' date='Sep 7 2008, 02:19 PM']1. You are responsible for your actions
2. Speaking words is indeed an action
3. You are not responsible for others actions
4. You have been enjoined by Christ to witness for Him
5. Assuming you have been confirmed you have specifically been made a soldier of Christ, and have a duty in that regard.
6. Denial of Christ is sin, even if you are not culpable for the sin, do to duress, it is still a sin, a great and abiding evil
7. If evil men decide to do evil things to fight Christ, of what surprise is that, Satan has always done Evil to fight God, they are just following their masters example.
8. By doing the right thing, and refusing to give in to fear and evil, you join with Christ in His suffering, and witness even to those who would kill you. How many have been brought to Christ by witness of the courage and devotion of His followers even in the face of Death.[/quote]
I understand all of this; it makes perfect sense and I'd never say otherwise.
What it's coming down to in my mind is a scale of values. We're responsible for our actions, and not others'. Of course, it's only common sense.
Though in other circumstances if you didn't do everything in your power to save a life, you're just as culpable for that.

I mean... let's make an extreme hypothetical situation. Let's say you've met Jesus, and you're talking to Him. It's during His ministry on earth, we'll pretend. You're facing Him, and you see behind Him a young child who's about to fall off a cliff. Jesus isn't facing the child, so He doesn't see. Would you shove Jesus aside (not off the cliff, of course) to grab the child before they fall? Seems like a pretty awful thing to push Jesus while He's in mid sentence.
Like I mentioned, extreme example. It's as much for me as it is for the sake of my argument...

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1650058' date='Sep 7 2008, 03:37 PM']I understand all of this; it makes perfect sense and I'd never say otherwise.
What it's coming down to in my mind is a scale of values. We're responsible for our actions, and not others'. Of course, it's only common sense.
Though in other circumstances if you didn't do everything in your power to save a life, you're just as culpable for that.

I mean... let's make an extreme hypothetical situation. Let's say you've met Jesus, and you're talking to Him. It's during His ministry on earth, we'll pretend. You're facing Him, and you see behind Him a young child who's about to fall off a cliff. Jesus isn't facing the child, so He doesn't see. Would you shove Jesus aside (not off the cliff, of course) to grab the child before they fall? Seems like a pretty awful thing to push Jesus while He's in mid sentence.
Like I mentioned, extreme example. It's as much for me as it is for the sake of my argument...[/quote]


I don't think thats an extreme example at all, jesus was a carpanter who hung out with commercial fisherman. I can imagine playing rugby with Jesus. Yes I would push him out of the way. But I would not deny Him to save that same child.

Edited September 7, 2008 by Don John of Austria

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1650086' date='Sep 7 2008, 02:58 PM']I don't think thats an extreme example at all, jesus was a Carpanter who hung out with commercial fisherman. I can imagine playing rugby with Jesus. YesI would push him out of the way. But I would not deny Him to save that same child.[/quote]
Hm.....
Well you know, I don't think this debate is going to come to a conclusion for now. Unfortunately. I know, but I don't understand, in this case. I need to take some time to think about this.......
Sorry to just drop it like this. I just don't think there's anything more that can be said by either of us.

Edited September 7, 2008 by Nihil Obstat

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1650101' date='Sep 7 2008, 04:14 PM']Hm.....
Well you know, I don't think this debate is going to come to a conclusion for now. Unfortunately. I know, but I don't understand, in this case. I need to take some time to think about this.......
Sorry to just drop it like this. I just don't think there's anything more that can be said by either of us.[/quote]


I understand.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1650107' date='Sep 7 2008, 03:19 PM']I understand.[/quote]
I don't.
For now I'll pray I never find that situation.

[Nihil Obstat]

Personally, would you save the Eucharist or the family in a fire? (Since that's the original topic anyway...)

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1650112' date='Sep 7 2008, 04:22 PM']Personally, would you save the Eucharist or the family in a fire? (Since that's the original topic anyway...)[/quote]

Oh I suspect I would instinctively save the Family. I don't see a fire as desacration, that is how we dispose of Sacred objects and the Eucharist that cannot be consumed, would I like it, no, but well the Family will be harmed, Christ will not.

Other situations ---- one where the Eucharist was actually going to be desacrated, that desition might be harder.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1648400' date='Sep 5 2008, 05:22 PM']Well I believe in free will, so it depends on what exactly you are asking. Does a terrorist call the shots about what he does, sure, do I call the shots on what I do, sure, God is nota puppet master.


Who is Sovreign well God of Course.[/quote]

My point is we obey the One who has authority. That would be God. So, out of our free will, we sacrifice our will to let God's will be done. That is Christianity, pure and simple, and it doesn't change when martyrdom enters the picture.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1650135' date='Sep 7 2008, 04:47 PM']My point is we obey the One who has authority. That would be God. So, out of our free will, we sacrifice our will to let God's will be done. That is Christianity, pure and simple, and it doesn't change when martyrdom enters the picture.[/quote]

Um okay? Do you have a point? Because I have apparantly missed it. Please lay out your position clearly and concisely.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1650125' date='Sep 7 2008, 05:35 PM']Oh I suspect I would instinctively save the Family. I don't see a fire as desacration, that is how we dispose of Sacred objects and the Eucharist that cannot be consumed, would I like it, no, but well the Family will be harmed, Christ will not.

Other situations ---- one where the Eucharist was actually going to be desacrated, that desition might be harder.[/quote]

I think I see how we can make some progress here... what if we just change the original persecution scenario? In the original scenario, these persecutors will kill some innocent people if you do not deny Christ; if you deny Christ, they will be allowed to live. Do you remain faithful and risk innocent lives (on earth, anyway), or do you "fake deny" Christ in the hope of saving them?

In this scenario, let's say this happens in a church and the persecutors take a host from the tabernacle and lay it in your hand. Your options are: a) consume the host, and they will kill everyone else in the church, or b) drop the host to the floor and smash it under your foot, and everyone will live.

Of course, in choosing the second option, it would be merely a "fake desecration" of the Eucharist. In your heart, you still love Jesus, but you are going to crumble a Eucharistic host under your big toe for the sake of these innocent lives.

Is that still an option?

Edited September 7, 2008 by LouisvilleFan

[Nihil Obstat]

*Steps back to see where this goes.*

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1650142' date='Sep 7 2008, 05:52 PM']Um okay? Do you have a point? Because I have apparantly missed it. Please lay out your position clearly and concisely.[/quote]

Then you apparently didn't bother to read this thread before you initiated further discussion.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1650152' date='Sep 7 2008, 04:59 PM']I think I see how we can make some progress here... what if we just change the original persecution scenario? In the original scenario, these persecutors will kill some innocent people if you do not deny Christ; if you deny Christ, they will be allowed to live. Do you remain faithful and risk innocent lives (on earth, anyway), or do you "fake deny" Christ in the hope of saving them?

In this scenario, let's say this happens in a church and the persecutors take a host from the tabernacle and lay it in your hand. Your options are: a) consume the host, and they will kill everyone else in the church, or b) drop the host to the floor and smash it under your foot, and everyone will live.

Of course, in choosing the second option, it would be merely a "fake desecration" of the Eucharist. In your heart, you still love Jesus, but you are going to crumble a Eucharistic host under your big toe for the sake of these innocent lives.

Is that still an option?[/quote]

option C I put the buck knife I carry in my pocket through the closest ones neck, consume the Host and move to the next Praying that God wiill fight for us.

If I am somehow prevented from taking Option C well the morgue is going to be very busy tonight.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1650158' date='Sep 7 2008, 05:04 PM']Then you apparently didn't bother to read this thread before you initiated further discussion.[/quote]


Read the whole thread... Your just not making any sense.