Jevitt Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 [quote name='truthfinder' post='1623272' date='Aug 10 2008, 02:49 AM']Now I feel like a fool, I made my choice beofre reading the scenario, having done so, I change my vote to the family - of course! I actually think there was a Eucharistic miracle that a church burnt to the ground but the tabernacle was completely perfect or something of the like, but I can't remember when, and it was probably 500 years ago.[/quote] Me too. I just saw the two options, and thought it meant "Which is more important to you?" Which, I hope the answer for all of us would be "Eucharist." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted August 30, 2008 Author Share Posted August 30, 2008 [quote name='Jevitt' post='1642063' date='Aug 29 2008, 09:52 PM']Me too. I just saw the two options, and thought it meant "Which is more important to you?" Which, I hope the answer for all of us would be "Eucharist." [/quote] You're supposed to read the whole question and thread first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffpugh Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1624654' date='Aug 11 2008, 08:15 PM']That would be so fun! Although maybe a bit less dignified...[/quote] I think it would make public signs of faith a little more awkward. I voted family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted August 30, 2008 Author Share Posted August 30, 2008 [quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1642582' date='Aug 30 2008, 04:53 PM']I think it would make public signs of faith a little more awkward.[/quote] On the other hand, it might attract more children to the Church. I can just picture a public prayer... "Let us all join together in prayer, in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit by waving our arms erratically around." "Amen" "and let us all pray by the stingers of the holy hornets..." ...and then at the front of the Church we could have a giant wasp... Man, Passion plays would be weird. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted September 4, 2008 Share Posted September 4, 2008 What do you think, Don? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Church Punk Posted September 4, 2008 Share Posted September 4, 2008 Eucharist...The family can walk out the Sacred host cant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted September 4, 2008 Share Posted September 4, 2008 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1633351' date='Aug 21 2008, 01:39 AM']Not your own martyrdom though. You'd be forcing a lot of other people to be martyrs for your faith. If it's my own life... yea, I'd be a martyr (I hope I could), but not if I'm dealing with other people's lives.[/quote] This is a false choice... you are not, in the example you propose forcing anyone to be a martyr for your faith; You are not killing them, you are not at fault or responsible for what others do because you will not renounce the Faith. However, you are responsable for your own actions, and denial of the faith is something for which you would be responsable. If you deny the Faith to save anothers life or even your own are you an Apostate? I would say no, but you have certianly earned no Merit, you have not witnessed for Christ, you are in fact not a good example to others. It is always better to boldly face Evil, to witness for Christ whatever the cost, and if evil men will kill the innocent because of your witness, they are responsable not you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LouisvilleFan Posted September 5, 2008 Share Posted September 5, 2008 (edited) [quote name='Church Punk' post='1647502' date='Sep 4 2008, 06:26 PM']Eucharist...The family can walk out the Sacred host cant.[/quote] Then there wouldn't be any need to rescue them, and no moral dilemma to begin with. Human life should always take precedence over rescuing a consecrated host. Isn't that what Jesus did for us? [quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1647517' date='Sep 4 2008, 06:35 PM']This is a false choice... you are not, in the example you propose forcing anyone to be a martyr for your faith; You are not killing them, you are not at fault or responsible for what others do because you will not renounce the Faith. However, you are responsable for your own actions, and denial of the faith is something for which you would be responsable. If you deny the Faith to save anothers life or even your own are you an Apostate? I would say no, but you have certianly earned no Merit, you have not witnessed for Christ, you are in fact not a good example to others. It is always better to boldly face Evil, to witness for Christ whatever the cost, and if evil men will kill the innocent because of your witness, they are responsable not you.[/quote] Bottom line is, who calls the shots? Edited September 5, 2008 by LouisvilleFan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted September 5, 2008 Share Posted September 5, 2008 [quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1648288' date='Sep 5 2008, 02:05 PM']Bottom line is, who calls the shots?[/quote] I don't follow... please elaborate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LouisvilleFan Posted September 5, 2008 Share Posted September 5, 2008 [quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1648340' date='Sep 5 2008, 04:04 PM']I don't follow... please elaborate.[/quote] Do you or I call the shots? Does a terrorist or persecutor call the shots? Or does God call the shots? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted September 5, 2008 Share Posted September 5, 2008 [quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1648394' date='Sep 5 2008, 04:12 PM']Do you or I call the shots? Does a terrorist or persecutor call the shots? Or does God call the shots?[/quote] Well I believe in free will, so it depends on what exactly you are asking. Does a terrorist call the shots about what he does, sure, do I call the shots on what I do, sure, God is nota puppet master. Who is Sovreign well God of Course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted September 6, 2008 Author Share Posted September 6, 2008 [quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1647517' date='Sep 4 2008, 04:35 PM']This is a false choice... you are not, in the example you propose forcing anyone to be a martyr for your faith; You are not killing them, you are not at fault or responsible for what others do because you will not renounce the Faith. However, you are responsable for your own actions, and denial of the faith is something for which you would be responsable. If you deny the Faith to save anothers life or even your own are you an Apostate? I would say no, but you have certianly earned no Merit, you have not witnessed for Christ, you are in fact not a good example to others. It is always better to boldly face Evil, to witness for Christ whatever the cost, and if evil men will kill the innocent because of your witness, they are responsable not you.[/quote] I'm trying to agree, but I just can't. The way my mind is working, I'm seeing this on a scale... innocent lives on one end, and some words on another. You said yourself that you wouldn't be an apostate... so that would mean that choosing that wouldn't be objectively wrong. What particular good is there if, say, a terrorist knows you believe in God? I really am trying to understand and agree, but I just can't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted September 7, 2008 Share Posted September 7, 2008 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1649320' date='Sep 6 2008, 05:43 PM']I'm trying to agree, but I just can't. The way my mind is working, I'm seeing this on a scale... innocent lives on one end, and some words on another. You said yourself that you wouldn't be an apostate... so that would mean that choosing that wouldn't be objectively wrong. What particular good is there if, say, a terrorist knows you believe in God? I really am trying to understand and agree, but I just can't. [/quote] "In the beginning there was the Word..." Words matter, they have power, they are important.... and I didn't say it would not be objectively wrong.... only that I didn't think it would make you an Apostate... What good is there in showing courage? In showing that Christians are not afraid of death? In Fighting the good fight? in keeping the Faith? Are you serious? **************************************** ************************************* I have to go to bed, I will try to get back to you tomorrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted September 7, 2008 Author Share Posted September 7, 2008 [quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1649786' date='Sep 7 2008, 02:42 AM']Words matter, they have power, they are important.... What good is there in showing courage? In showing that Christians are not afraid of death? In Fighting the good fight? in keeping the Faith?[/quote] Words matter, words are powerful, but life is too. In this situation I wouldn't necessarily be afraid for my own life (well I would, but that's irrelevant at the moment), but I'll bet you the other people are. You could look at it like living Christ's love. Actions speak louder than words. You can talk all you want about the value of life, but what's the point? Actions must follow words. Obviously I'm ignoring the whole other side with what I just said; forgive me for that. I'm not awake enough to think of a more clear point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted September 7, 2008 Author Share Posted September 7, 2008 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1649902' date='Sep 7 2008, 11:33 AM']Words matter, words are powerful, but life is too. In this situation I wouldn't necessarily be afraid for my own life (well I would, but that's irrelevant at the moment), but I'll bet you the other people are. You could look at it like living Christ's love. Actions speak louder than words. You can talk all you want about the value of life, but what's the point? Actions must follow words. Obviously I'm ignoring the whole other side with what I just said; forgive me for that. I'm not awake enough to think of a more clear point.[/quote] I'm trying I'm trying I'm trying! Please believe me, I really am! It sounds like I'm just arguing..... I want to understand though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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