Eucharist Or People?

[Paddington]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1627193' date='Aug 14 2008, 07:11 PM']"Sir, I do not share your faith. But if I did - if I believed what you say you believed - then although England were covered with broken glass from coast to coast, I would crawl the length and breadth of it on hand and knee and think the pain worthwhile, just to save a single soul from this eternal hell of which you speak."
~Charles Peace[/quote]

Nice quote. But, it sounds like an unbeliever underestimating how powerful sin is. And, I don't know about the implicit soteriology.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1627956' date='Aug 15 2008, 08:29 AM']This thread isn't controversial enough.[/quote]
Not controversial enough? Not sure I can help you there.

[Balthazor]

[quote name='XIX' post='1616682' date='Aug 3 2008, 09:08 PM']LOL

a blowtorch...[/quote]



You know that reminds me a youth minister was telling me how one preist used to "toast the host" , that is toast the unconsecrated hosts that he used. The problem was that after it was consecrated and broken it would have all of these tiny little peices shatter off and the Youth minister who was very pious would lick his finger to pick up all the little pieces of Jesus that broke off and fell on the alter. Somehow picturing it is funny but I hope that the priest learned his lesson, because being irreverant is not funny.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Balthazor' post='1628810' date='Aug 16 2008, 10:17 AM']
You know that reminds me a youth minister was telling me how one preist used to "toast the host" , that is toast the unconsecrated hosts that he used. The problem was that after it was consecrated and broken it would have all of these tiny little peices shatter off and the Youth minister who was very pious would lick his finger to pick up all the little pieces of Jesus that broke off and fell on the alter. Somehow picturing it is funny but I hope that the priest learned his lesson, because being irreverant is not funny.[/quote]
Wow, now that is something to start a debate here on PM! I can just picture it now...

[VeniteAdoremus]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1627142' date='Aug 14 2008, 11:16 PM']yes, it has to be intentional to be guilty... no one is committing sacriledge, but it's still a sacriledgeous event while disposing of the host by fire is not a sacrilidgeous event. if a host accidentally gets dropped, it's a sacriledge but not a sacriledge perpetrated by anyone and there is no guilt for anyone.

the unintentional burning is different because of the intention... the hosts were not unusable and were not intentionally and reverently being disposed of. it's like the word "sin"... sin still happens even if no one is culpable/guilty for the sin.. it's just not anyone's sin if no one is culpable, but the damage is done by the sin just the same.[/quote]

Thanks! I think I get it now

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1628559' date='Aug 16 2008, 12:15 AM']Not controversial enough? Not sure I can help you there. [/quote]

I love a good debate. It's no fun when everybody agrees so easily.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1631531' date='Aug 19 2008, 10:06 AM']I love a good debate. It's no fun when everybody agrees so easily. [/quote]
Want to know why I started this thread?
There's a different thread in the Theology area, Would You Die For Your Faith?
The question was would you allow a family to die, or even a lot of people, or deny your faith. I said deny the faith, but don't mean it. Words only. Makes perfect sense to me. In fact it's almost the same question, in my mind.
Although the majority of responses said never deny your faith, even in words only not even meaning it, for ANY reason, even if thousands of people's lives were on the line.
I don't agree, and I don't understand that idea very well.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1632429' date='Aug 20 2008, 02:31 AM']Want to know why I started this thread?
There's a different thread in the Theology area, Would You Die For Your Faith?
The question was would you allow a family to die, or even a lot of people, or deny your faith. I said deny the faith, but don't mean it. Words only. Makes perfect sense to me. In fact it's almost the same question, in my mind.
Although the majority of responses said never deny your faith, even in words only not even meaning it, for ANY reason, even if thousands of people's lives were on the line.
I don't agree, and I don't understand that idea very well.[/quote]

Ah, I remember that. Of course, in choosing to save someone from a burning church first before retreiving the hosts, you are not denying your faith at all.

Still, I don't see where you can support your view from Scripture or the examples of any saints. When it comes to being threatened for your faith, how can you give God glory and deny Him at the same time, even if you say you don't mean it? What's the difference between that and giving a small sacrifice to Caesar?

We shoudl be very careful with trying to reason our way out of martyrdom. Satan's a tricky devil.

Edited August 20, 2008 by LouisvilleFan

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1632531' date='Aug 20 2008, 08:47 AM']Ah, I remember that. Of course, in choosing to save someone from a burning church first before retreiving the hosts, you are not denying your faith at all.

Still, I don't see where you can support your view from Scripture or the examples of any saints. When it comes to being threatened for your faith, how can you give God glory and deny Him at the same time, even if you say you don't mean it? What's the difference between that and giving a small sacrifice to Caesar?

We shoudl be very careful with trying to reason our way out of martyrdom. Satan's a tricky devil.[/quote]
Not your own martyrdom though. You'd be forcing a lot of other people to be martyrs for your faith.
If it's my own life... yea, I'd be a martyr (I hope I could), but not if I'm dealing with other people's lives.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1633351' date='Aug 21 2008, 02:39 AM']Not your own martyrdom though. You'd be forcing a lot of other people to be martyrs for your faith.
If it's my own life... yea, I'd be a martyr (I hope I could), but not if I'm dealing with other people's lives.[/quote]

Yeah, I can see what you're saying. The contradiction, though, is you're using reason with an unreasonable person. You see how far reason gets us in debates with some people in this forum. Some people have their mind set on something and love to manipulate others just to satisfy their power trip. The mind of a terrorist isn't one that negotiates and reasons.

The worst case scenario is you "deny" Christ and the terrorist kills these people anyway. They don't care about anyone's life. They just wanted to prove that you would deny your faith. What do you do then?

Edited August 21, 2008 by LouisvilleFan

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1633490' date='Aug 21 2008, 09:40 AM']Yeah, I can see what you're saying. The contradiction, though, is you're using reason with an unreasonable person. You see how far reason gets us in debates with some people in this forum. Some people have their mind set on something and love to manipulate others just to satisfy their power trip. The mind of a terrorist isn't one that negotiates and reasons.

The worst case scenario is you "deny" Christ and the terrorist kills these people anyway. They don't care about anyone's life. They just wanted to prove that you would deny your faith. What do you do then?[/quote]
Well then you've done your best to save lives. What else can we do?
After all, police forces will very often try to negotiate with hostage takers and the like. Maybe they're completely insane and will kill everyone even if everything possible is done to avoid that... we can't know. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try.
Yea, it's not cool at all to "stoop to their level" and do what they want, but on the other hand... do you actually want to know that you condemned innocent people by not saying a few truly meaningless words?
It's between you and God. The denying... he would understand. Not trying to help though? What does He think of that?

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1634784' date='Aug 22 2008, 03:48 PM']Yea, it's not cool at all to "stoop to their level" and do what they want, but on the other hand... do you actually want to know that you condemned innocent people by not saying a few truly meaningless words?
It's between you and God. The denying... he would understand. Not trying to help though? What does He think of that?[/quote]

Well, I suppose in the end we our judged by our hearts. That's a huge risk to take, though. It's one thing to negotiate with terrorists in secular matters, but quite another when faith gets into the mix. How do you say the words, "I deny Christ," and consider it meaningless? I can't imagine uttering the words, "I hate my mother," and she's simply another sinner.

I don't know if God would understand a denial. When it comes to helping others, a lot of people in the social justice arena are trying to help with the right intentions, yet promote causes that deny Christ and the Church. Meanwhile, we have the very words of Jesus: "If you deny me before men, I will deny you before the Father."

There's just no way I'd want to roll the dice with those words, no matter how certain I might be about my relationship with God. I still need grace as desperately as the terrorist.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1636935' date='Aug 24 2008, 06:44 PM']Well, I suppose in the end we our judged by our hearts. That's a huge risk to take, though. It's one thing to negotiate with terrorists in secular matters, but quite another when faith gets into the mix. How do you say the words, "I deny Christ," and consider it meaningless? I can't imagine uttering the words, "I hate my mother," and she's simply another sinner.

I don't know if God would understand a denial. When it comes to helping others, a lot of people in the social justice arena are trying to help with the right intentions, yet promote causes that deny Christ and the Church. Meanwhile, we have the very words of Jesus: "If you deny me before men, I will deny you before the Father."

There's just no way I'd want to roll the dice with those words, no matter how certain I might be about my relationship with God. I still need grace as desperately as the terrorist.[/quote]
It is risky for sure, but then again... so is playing with innocent lives.
...but there's no way you can say that saving those lives would not be worthwhile, right?
That verse, the quote of Jesus... I interpret it differently, I suppose. I interpret it more in the way Peter denied Jesus three times. That was denial out of (albeit legitimate) fear. Peter didn't mean it either, but he was pretty sorry, I think. I'm also pretty sure he was forgiven, am I right?
Then, on the other hand, we have denial out of love for our neighbours.
I won't pretend it's a simple issue... but I also won't say that I think you're entirely right.
Luckily I don't think I'll have to make that choice. Probably you won't either, or any of us here. We pray.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1637370' date='Aug 25 2008, 02:43 AM']It is risky for sure, but then again... so is playing with innocent lives.
...but there's no way you can say that saving those lives would not be worthwhile, right?[/quote]

Depends on the means used. The ends does not always justify the means.

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1637370' date='Aug 25 2008, 02:43 AM']That verse, the quote of Jesus... I interpret it differently, I suppose. I interpret it more in the way Peter denied Jesus three times. That was denial out of (albeit legitimate) fear. Peter didn't mean it either, but he was pretty sorry, I think. I'm also pretty sure he was forgiven, am I right?[/quote]

Yes, Peter was forgiven, but he needed to repent of his denial through Jesus's three-fold "Do you love me?" question. So, even though he didn't really mean it, he still sinned.

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1637370' date='Aug 25 2008, 02:43 AM']Then, on the other hand, we have denial out of love for our neighbours.[/quote]

Then the question comes up... what is love?

Could I be loving my neighbor by maintaining a faithful testimony to Christ? Which life do I ultimately hope to pass on to them: the gift of this mortal life or eternal life in heaven?

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1637370' date='Aug 25 2008, 02:43 AM']Luckily I don't think I'll have to make that choice. Probably you won't either, or any of us here. We pray.[/quote]

Very true for us, but persecuted Christians can realistically face situations not too much unlike this one, where their faithfulness to Christ is putting the lives of close loved ones at risk in addition to their own.

Edited August 25, 2008 by LouisvilleFan

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1637447' date='Aug 25 2008, 08:56 AM']Depends on the means used. The ends does not always justify the means.



Yes, Peter was forgiven, but he needed to repent of his denial through Jesus's three-fold "Do you love me?" question. So, even though he didn't really mean it, he still sinned.



Then the question comes up... what is love?

Could I be loving my neighbor by maintaining a faithful testimony to Christ? Which life do I ultimately hope to pass on to them: the gift of this mortal life or eternal life in heaven?



Very true for us, but persecuted Christians can realistically face situations not too much unlike this one, where their faithfulness to Christ is putting the lives of close loved ones at risk in addition to their own.[/quote]
Oh I'm not saying that you could be perfectly happy about it afterwards. You'd probably feel bad even if you managed to save the lives, and you'd want to go to confession and that sort of thing. Neither choice is a very nice one to make.
Could you love your neighbour with a love for Christ? Yea, of course... but Jesus also said "what you do to the least of [...I always forget the particular word here] you do to me." So he's pretty clearly saying that other people are also imminently important.