Ecclesial Community

[Resurrexi]

I'm sure many of you remember the CDF's document last summer "Responses to Some Questions Regarding Certain Aspects of the Doctrine on the Church." Do any of you now use the term "ecclesial community" because of it?

Edited August 1, 2008 by StThomasMore

[goldenchild17]

no
no

Edited August 1, 2008 by goldenchild17

[homeschoolmom]

no. and no. In general, when I'm speaking about such things it's with Protestants.... I'm not going to ask, "So, how was your Ecclesial Community's gathering today?"

[Pio Nono]

JMJ
8/1 - St Alphonsus Liguori

I don't tend to refer to them as "churches," and more and more now they don't refer to themselves that way. I tend to use the term "communion" - the Anglican communion, the Lutheran communion, &c. I'll even use the word "faith" - a bishop of the Methodist faith, for instance.

But the building...I see no harm in calling the building itself a "church."

[Noel's angel]

Yup to the first.
To the second, I usually refer to the place as a 'hall' or something like that.

Edited August 1, 2008 by Noel's angel

[friendofJPII]

[quote name='Noel's angel' post='1614969' date='Aug 1 2008, 10:03 AM']Yup to the first.
To the second, I usually refer to the place as a 'hall' or something like that.[/quote]

Forgive my ignorance, but why can't we call them churches? I think I heard something about that last year, but I didn't really pay attention.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='friendofJPII' post='1614976' date='Aug 1 2008, 12:08 PM']Forgive my ignorance, but why can't we call them churches? I think I heard something about that last year, but I didn't really pay attention.[/quote]
Because they are not technically churches - the only groups that are actual churches are Catholics and Anglicans that trace back to Jesus Christ and the 12 Apostles. All others are simply groups.

[LouisvilleFan]

However, that document you all are referring to says "Churches in the proper sense." When referring to Protestant churches, I'm not talking about a church in the proper sense. It's pretty much the same as the Catholic vs. catholic distinction. I usually make a point to capitalize "Church" when referring to a proper Catholic/Orthodox Church.

With most regular people (i.e. those who are not theology geeks), bothering with the official theological terminology only creates confusion. Protestants lack an understanding of how Catholicism and Orthodoxy are not denominations like they think of us, and they don't define the communion of saints, the Bride of Christ, and mystical Body of Christ the same way we do. So, unless you want to get into a very long conversation explaining all of that, and you think you can successfully explain it on a very elementary level, and don't mind if it still doesn't get through, then I think it's better to call them churches and be done with it.

I tried having that conversation one-on-one with a Calvinist friend during a backpacking trip. We had all the uninterrupted time in the world and I felt like I was doing as good as job as a layperson could do without a proper theological education, but it was all so foreign to him that he simply wasn't seeing it. I don't mean that he saw the Catholic position and still disagreed; he wasn't seeing the true Catholic position at all. So, I had to leave it be.

Edited August 1, 2008 by LouisvilleFan

[friendofJPII]

But when speaking to a Protestant friend, I think it is better to use the term church, for charity's sake. If they think that you are stating that their churh isn't really a church they will probably take it as an insult, which will impede any hope of dialogue.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Noel's angel' post='1614969' date='Aug 1 2008, 09:03 AM']To the second, I usually refer to the place as a 'hall' or something like that.[/quote]

Good idea. I thought it was kind of awkward that I was referring to a buildings as a communities... but I couldn't very well call them churches because they weren't consecrated or blessed.

[quote name='friendofJPII' post='1614976' date='Aug 1 2008, 09:08 AM']Forgive my ignorance, but why can't we call them churches? I think I heard something about that last year, but I didn't really pay attention.[/quote]

According to Catholic doctrine, these Communities [born out of the Reformation of the sixteenth century] do not enjoy apostolic succession in the sacrament of Orders, and are, therefore, deprived of a constitutive element of the Church. These ecclesial Communities which, specifically because of the absence of the sacramental priesthood, have not preserved the genuine and integral substance of the Eucharistic Mystery[19] cannot, according to Catholic doctrine, be called “Churches” in the proper sense[20]. (Response to Question Five of Responses to Some Questions Regarding Certain Aspects of the Doctrine on the Church)

Edited August 1, 2008 by StThomasMore

[Thy Geekdom Come]

1. Yes, generally, but I think the CDF's intention was to clarify their status more than what we should call them in our colloquial speech.
2. No; it doesn't make any sense to call a building a "community."

[mommas_boy]

No and no.

To express unity, I use "religion" to refer to Christianity at large, and will typically ask something to the effect of "What [b]tradition[/b] of Christianity are you?" or some such, instead of asking what "church" they attend. If I want to find out what building they are at, I'll asking what church. I don't refer to their church as an "ecclesial community" for social reasons.

EDIT: Using "tradition" also has the nice side-effect of putting it into their heads that they use tradition too, and not just scripture.

Edited August 1, 2008 by mommas_boy

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1615281' date='Aug 1 2008, 01:41 PM']2. No; it doesn't make any sense to call a building a "community."[/quote]

If you really think about it, though, it's similar to calling the consecrated/blessed building where we celebrate Mass a "church." After all, "church" didn't originally mean a building, and even today, that isn't its primary meaning.

[Selah]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' post='1614957' date='Aug 1 2008, 11:32 AM']no. and no. In general, when I'm speaking about such things it's with Protestants.... I'm not going to ask, "So, how was your Ecclesial Community's gathering today?"[/quote]

I never even knew that Protestants were referred to in this way.

[jeffpugh]

Okies... my answers, then my random commentary...

Yes, I call them ecclesial communities, depending on the company, and No, I don't call the building a community. Though, I try not to use the word "church"

[quote name='goldenchild17' post='1614862' date='Aug 1 2008, 02:25 AM']no
no

[/quote]
lawl!

[quote name='homeschoolmom' post='1614957' date='Aug 1 2008, 10:32 AM']no. and no. In general, when I'm speaking about such things it's with Protestants.... I'm not going to ask, "So, how was your Ecclesial Community's gathering today?"[/quote]
lawl. I understand. They just wont get it. Just like they don't get purgatory straight off

[quote name='friendofJPII' post='1615081' date='Aug 1 2008, 12:42 PM']But when speaking to a Protestant friend, I think it is better to use the term church, for charity's sake. If they think that you are stating that their churh isn't really a church they will probably take it as an insult, which will impede any hope of dialogue.[/quote]
that's a good point. Evangelising the protestants requires them to be attentive, so treading carefuly on what to call their people's community is a must.

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1615261' date='Aug 1 2008, 03:29 PM']Good idea. I thought it was kind of awkward that I was referring to a buildings as a communities... but I couldn't very well call them churches because they weren't consecrated or blessed.



According to Catholic doctrine, these Communities [born out of the Reformation of the sixteenth century] do not enjoy apostolic succession in the sacrament of Orders, and are, therefore, deprived of a constitutive element of the Church. These ecclesial Communities which, specifically because of the absence of the sacramental priesthood, have not preserved the genuine and integral substance of the Eucharistic Mystery[19] cannot, according to Catholic doctrine, be called “Churches” in the proper sense[20]. (Response to Question Five of Responses to Some Questions Regarding Certain Aspects of the Doctrine on the Church)[/quote]
Man, you really know how to do your digging

[quote name='mommas_boy' post='1615291' date='Aug 1 2008, 03:49 PM']No and no.

To express unity, I use "religion" to refer to Christianity at large, and will typically ask something to the effect of "What [b]tradition[/b] of Christianity are you?" or some such, instead of asking what "church" they attend. If I want to find out what building they are at, I'll asking what church. I don't refer to their church as an "ecclesial community" for social reasons.

EDIT: Using "tradition" also has the nice side-effect of putting it into their heads that they use tradition too, and not just scripture. [/quote]

Touché. And once you figure out their "flavour", you can use that in reference to their community, building, w/e. Use your imagination