Pro-abortion Or Pro-choice

[dairygirl4u2c]

the reason fidea is bitter is because he shouldn't be for abortion when there's risks to killing a person. and it eats at him.
or maybe,,, cause he wants to say it's not a person but shouldn't be so sure.
trying ot pretend there's answere when there are none should make you uncomfortable.

not because the person arguments don't make sense. it's an open question.
it's not common sense to say a cell is a person. it's not common sense even to say a heart is a person. i mean, really,,, a heart is not a person, a cell is not a person. do we live on mars?
even if it's an organism by some formalistic definition,,, it's a human at a unicellular stage. a cell isn't a person.
(no one's saying it's a goat, and the people saying that are the ones being illogical,,, person v. life)
necessiarly, these arguments could work. but who knows, as per what's a person in a meaningful sense.

[Deb]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1618163' date='Aug 5 2008, 01:03 PM']the reason fidea is bitter is because he shouldn't be for abortion when there's risks to killing a person. and it eats at him.
or maybe,,, cause he wants to say it's not a person but shouldn't be so sure.
trying ot pretend there's answere when there are none should make you uncomfortable.

not because the person arguments don't make sense. it's an open question.
it's not common sense to say a cell is a person. it's not common sense even to say a heart is a person. i mean, really,,, a heart is not a person, a cell is not a person. do we live on mars?
even if it's an organism by some formalistic definition,,, it's a human at a unicellular stage. a cell isn't a person.
(no one's saying it's a goat, and the people saying that are the ones being illogical,,, person v. life)
necessiarly, these arguments could work. but who knows, as per what's a person in a meaningful sense.[/quote]

The Eucharist is Jesus Christ so yea, it does make sense to say a cell is a person.

[KnightofChrist]

A person [b]is[/b] a soul which [b]has[/b] a body. Or as C.S. Lewis said 'You don't have a soul. [u]You are a Soul[/u]. You have a body.'

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1618056' date='Aug 5 2008, 10:09 AM']Your choice to deny truth does not change truth in this world or even your own little one. Some people disagree that gravity keeps them from flying like superman, but they soon learn truth is undeniable. So long as your full of bitterness you will fail to see the truth.[/quote]
The difference is, telling me that "God says" doesn't cut it. You can't compare the "truth" of your religious beliefs to gravity because you cannot prove to me, beyond a reasonable doubt, that I should belief your religion over all the others.

I rejected Catholicism and religion for a reason.

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='Deb' post='1618013' date='Aug 5 2008, 09:51 AM']You are young and you are male. You have grown up in a world that has said the lie long enough that it is something you truly believe. That clump of cells has a heartbeat at 18 days. That clump of cells that are being aborted at 12 and 16 and 20 weeks is fully formed and their isn't anyone who could not identify it as a baby.
When abortion became legal, under a very flawed accident of the courts, it wasn't mainstream. Those who wanted to make money off it, those who wanted to turn it into just another form of contraceptive so women would be willing to have sex without worrying about the consequences had to sell it. It was distasteful and evil to people then too. So, it was marketed and sold. There are millions of women out there who bought the clump of cells pitch when they were young, frightened, pressured teenagers. They have been suffering for decades with post abortion stress syndrome and it is only now being recognized. 85% of women who have had abortions regret them because sooner or later, they realize it was more than a clump of cells. Women were created to bear children and they know that murdering them before they leave the womb is murder just as much as if they waited until they were born.
The men involved are wounded from it and they too are suffering. Places like planned parenthood fight to the teeth to not let this information be revealed because they make a lot of money off abortions.
Anyone who knows God exists knows this was not his plan for humanity. Every abortion is a wound in Christ's heart. Every person who is involved in abortion, whether they have one, help someone obtain one, perform one, counsel someone to get one, who does not repent, confess and be absolved, will die with the sin of murder on them.
What abortion brought in was a culture of death which has raised an entire generation like you that can't even fathom what the value of life is. It is so very very sad.
Abortion is murder. Why don't you hit the internet and take a look at some of the photos of the aborted "clumps of cells" and let me know what they remind you of.[/quote]
Sorry, my belief is my choice. I was Catholic for 17 years of my life, and that was also by choice. I was baptised Catholic but it wasn't until I chose to go to Mass that I truly believed. However, I came to stop believing in the "faith," no doubt part of the reason being Phatmass. I can't stand the ignorance of most religious people. I admire the faith, but this very topic is example to what I mean. There is no dialogue. Just people telling me I'm wrong and that no matter what I say, I will still be wrong. Perhaps if there was such a thing as friendly dialogue, where yes, you can still be "right" but you try to actually prove to me why, not just tell me I'm wrong.

I chose to be Catholic and then I chose not to be. I don't believe in that fairy tale anymore, sorry.

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1618255' date='Aug 5 2008, 01:26 PM']I can't stand the ignorance of most religious people. I admire the faith, but this very topic is example to what I mean. There is no dialogue. Just people telling me I'm wrong and that no matter what I say, I will still be wrong. Perhaps if there was such a thing as friendly dialogue, where yes, you can still be "right" but you try to actually prove to me why, not just tell me I'm wrong.

I chose to be Catholic and then I chose not to be. I don't believe in that fairy tale anymore, sorry.[/quote]

Your last sentence proves that you are much the same way. No friendly dialogue, just insults.

Edited August 5, 2008 by dominicansoul

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='dominicansoul' post='1618318' date='Aug 5 2008, 01:57 PM']Your last sentence proves that you are much the same way. No friendly dialogue, just insults.[/quote]
No, my last sentence tells you how I see the religious belief that I gave up. It has nothing to do with dialogue. And if it does, I have every right to call you out on calling everyone who is pro-choice a "baby killer."

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1618341' date='Aug 5 2008, 03:15 PM']No, my last sentence tells you how I see the religious belief that I gave up. It has nothing to do with dialogue. And if it does, I have every right to call you out on calling everyone who is pro-choice a "baby killer."[/quote]

[quote]There is no dialogue. Just people telling me I'm wrong and that no matter what I say, I will still be wrong.[/quote]

it looks like you are guilty of this too...

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='dominicansoul' post='1618361' date='Aug 5 2008, 02:41 PM']it looks like you are guilty of this too...[/quote]
I would be open to discussing the evidence for when human life begins if something other than "God said so" was offered and the terms "baby killer" and anything related weren't being thrown around. That's not dialogue, that's name calling.

[dominicansoul]

And calling Catholicism a "fairy tale" isn't name calling?

I believe you can not complain, when you are doing the exact things you are accusing others of doing....

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='dominicansoul' post='1618369' date='Aug 5 2008, 02:45 PM']And calling Catholicism a "fairy tale" isn't name calling?

I believe you can not complain, when you are doing the exact things you are accusing others of doing....[/quote]
Fine. Calling Catholicism a fairytale is name calling. Now what?

Edited August 5, 2008 by fidei defensor

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1618372' date='Aug 5 2008, 03:51 PM']Fine. Calling Catholicism a fairytale is name calling. Now what?[/quote]

Now we can be open to dialogue...

You see, it's usually like this with most controversial subjects. One side accuses the other of troubling semantics and name calling, when they are just as guilty...

You don't like us calling them "child killers"

Fine...let's take all kinds of names out of the debate and discuss this subject without further "name calling."

You don't believe a "clump of cells" is a baby. Tell me, fidei, how do you suppose you looked at one day old (i mean in your mom's womb..?) Do you honestly believe your mother could have destroyed your "clump of cells" without killing you? Your very existence would have ceased to be if she did that! And the sad thing is, many women do not kill their babies after just one day in the womb....many times babies are well-formed...and many of them are even born, and still get killed. What was allowed at the very beginning of the Abortion legalization...where women were supposedly only allowed abortion at very early stages of conception...has erupted into all out infanticide...

Of course everybody has choices in life. God has deemed this. He has given us the power to choose what ever we want to do in life. But not all things that exist in our world are good choices. God also gave us the minds and hearts to discern right from wrong. He gave us a Church founded by His Only Son to help us on our journeys. Even if you do not believe in God and His Church, there is still a natural order to all things. And Abortion goes against this natural order. Sure, be pro-choice...but please "choose LIFE!"

Edited August 5, 2008 by dominicansoul

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='dominicansoul' post='1618382' date='Aug 5 2008, 03:11 PM']Now we can be open to dialogue...

You see, it's usually like this with most controversial subjects. One side accuses the other of troubling semantics and name calling, when they are just as guilty...

You don't like us calling them "child killers"

Fine...let's take all kinds of names out of the debate and discuss this subject without further "name calling."

You don't believe a "clump of cells" is a baby. Tell me, fidei, how do you suppose you looked at one day old (i mean in your mom's womb..?) Do you honestly believe your mother could have destroyed your "clump of cells" without killing you? Your very existence would have ceased to be if she did that! And the sad thing is, many women do not kill their babies after just one day in the womb....many times babies are well-formed...and many of them are even born, and still get killed. What was allowed at the very beginning of the Abortion legalization...where women were supposedly only allowed abortion at very early stages of conception...has erupted into all out infanticide...

Of course everybody has choices in life. God has deemed this. He has given us the power to choose what ever we want to do in life. But not all things that exist in our world are good choices. God also gave us the minds and hearts to discern right from wrong. He gave us a Church founded by His Only Son to help us on our journeys. Even if you do not believe in God and His Church, there is still a natural order to all things. And Abortion goes against this natural order. Sure, be pro-choice...but please "choose LIFE!"[/quote]
The trouble I have with the idea of "how would you have liked to have been aborted" idea is that I would have never known. Yes, it is an emotionally charged idea that I could have never existed if I was aborted, but that doesn't prove anything because I would have never developed and become aware of the fact that I was terminated.

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1618385' date='Aug 5 2008, 04:15 PM']The trouble I have with the idea of "how would you have liked to have been aborted" idea is that I would have never known. Yes, it is an emotionally charged idea that I could have never existed if I was aborted, but that doesn't prove anything because I would have never developed and become aware of the fact that I was terminated.[/quote]

Well..speaking from my beliefs, and seeing that you do not believe as I do, I know the little babies know that they were terminated.

But whether you believe they know or not, does this change what has taken place? Does it change the fact that an action of the mother/doctors have terminated the existence of this human being?

[StColette]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1617869' date='Aug 5 2008, 02:14 AM']Well I'm sorry, but because I don't believe that the "clump of cells" inside the womb before birth is alive, I disagree that abortion is killing a baby. So you can sit and say it is murder all you want but I will always disagree, and in my world, I am correct. I can play the game too [/quote]

So if the fetus isn't alive before birth, is it dead and somehow comes alive during birth? I'm just trying to understand your logic here. I mean if a fetus is only alive after birth then is the fetus dead during the all stages of pregnancy? If you would agree to this then how do you account for heartbeat, which is generally seen as a sign of something living at least according to Medical Dictionaries and Journals, respiration (yes fetuses use their respiratory systems during development), movement (believe me they are movers and shakers even at early weeks of development), and also what about neurological processes and responses? I'm just curious as to how you would explain these and what your definition of alive would be. I'm not meaning to attack you, so please don't take it that way, I'm just genuinely asking.

God Bless,
Jennie