Pro-abortion Or Pro-choice

[Socrates]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1616706' date='Aug 3 2008, 09:56 PM']Hardly anyone argues seriously for making abortion and euthanasia.

Again, would you accept the term "pro-choice" for people who would want to legalize murder (of already-born persons), rape or theft?

"Pro-life" has always traditionally been used by those opposed to abortion, euthanasia, and other such taking of [i]innocent [/i]human life. There have always been people on both sides of the death penalty in the pro-life movement. Trying to insist that only those who oppose the death penalty are "pro-life" is a very recent move by those with a specific agenda.
Myself and most of the pro-lifers I know believe the death penalty has legitimate application.

And, once again, the Church has always taught that abortion is always wrong, while the death penalty for criminals is not.
From Cardinal Ratzinger:

Again, let's try to keep this thread on topic folks. The topic is about using the term "pro-choice," not the death penalty. Plenty of other threads to debate that. (Sees this turning into 37-page thread on the death penalty and homosexuals)
One should not use deceitful and false language out of concern for "offending" others though.
There are ways to speak charitably without adopting false and euphemistic language.[/quote]
Just for clarification, my first sentence there should have read, "Hardly anyone argues seriously for making abortion and euthanasia mandatory."

It was late, and my brain obviously wasn't connecting well with my fingers. Sorry.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Deb' post='1617423' date='Aug 4 2008, 08:02 PM']If you are pro-choice your are pro-abortion. You cannot support a persons right to murder the unborn and then pretend you do not have blood on your hands just because you did not murder or cause someone else to murder.
Pro-choice is a term used solely so that people can pretend they are not talking about murder of an unborn child. It is used to pacify their conscience, nothing else.[/quote]
Amen!

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1616743' date='Aug 4 2008, 12:45 AM']But isn't that contradictory seeing as at some point, you'd be for death of a human being which would be against life, or in other words, anti-life?

The point is, making out people to be evil because they disagree with your belief only leaves you looking foolish. Not everyone shares your viewpoint and even if you would delcare yourself to be absolutely correct, even at gunpoint, that still doesnt take away differing viewpoints. Call it deceitful wording or whatever carp you people want to use to make yourselves feel better, no one wants to discuss with someone who is only there to tell you that you're wrong.[/quote]
No its not contradictory at all. I am pro-life for babies because they are innocent, and believe in capital punishment because convicted murderers have forfeited their life for their crime. Murdering babies is objectively evil by any standard, and telling the truth never makes one lo ok foolish. Calling good evil and evil good, which is what pro-death people do, accomplishs that.

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1617551' date='Aug 4 2008, 09:02 PM']No its not contradictory at all. I am pro-life for babies because they are innocent, and believe in capital punishment because convicted murderers have forfeited their life for their crime. Murdering babies is objectively evil by any standard, and telling the truth never makes one lo ok foolish. Calling good evil and evil good, which is what pro-death people do, accomplishs that.[/quote]
Yet you find it more convenient to characterize people rather than admit that there could be genuine difference in opinion. You have to admit that if one doesn't truly believe that a fetus is considered alive before birth, their position on abortion logically follows. That doesn't mean they want to murder babies, their definition of baby in that context is post-birth. But of course, calling them baby murderers just appeals to emotion, so you win obviously.

[MissScripture]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1617642' date='Aug 4 2008, 10:44 PM']Yet you find it more convenient to characterize people rather than admit that there could be genuine difference in opinion. You have to admit that if one doesn't truly believe that a fetus is considered alive before birth, their position on abortion logically follows. That doesn't mean they want to murder babies, their definition of baby in that context is post-birth. But of course, calling them baby murderers just appeals to emotion, so you win obviously.[/quote]
Regardless of what they believe, abortion IS killing a baby, so yes, they are baby killers.

[dairygirl4u2c]

you guys should be.. instead of saying things like people use prochoice to sooth their conscience etc,,, be arguing that there's never a time when using prochoice is effective.

i assumed it obvious, that there are times when using prochoice is effective. prochoice people are often irrational. that's the nature of them, no surprise given their positions often. they're easily offended, i know from experience. they shut their minds to things. how you act can matter a lot.

i said i doubted one would be offended, in my first post. i was wrong to be so general. i admit it, you guys should too. or, at least argue how it's never the case that you might want to consider using prochoice.

just saying "we wouldn't do that for the nazis" isn't an argument, cause maybe we should... even i hestiate to say we should if it means change, at least sometimes, and it's ultimately to get people to change. (plus i think nazi and abortion usually is more dissimilar than similar) just saying "it's to sooth consicence" doesn't,,, because it's preventing peopel from changing, not -just- to sooth conscience.

people should be saying either "i agree that we should allow people to be turned off by us, on principle,,, because we don't compromise", explicity admit their logical conclusions of their ideas..... --or--- they should be arguing, how they could posisbly think prochoice people are never turned off by the words.

[dairygirl4u2c]

just saying "using prochoice never has any positive effect in changing them and furthering dialouge" isn't enough to prove that that's the case.
i don't see how you are trying to argue, that it's always the case that it's not going to make any difference, always is a big argument.

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='MissScripture' post='1617667' date='Aug 4 2008, 09:49 PM']Regardless of what they believe, abortion IS killing a baby, so yes, they are baby killers.[/quote]
LOL.

My point exactly. How wonderful you are at dialogue. It doesn't matter if you believe the moon is made of coagulated milk, screaming that at someone who doesn't believe the same thing does nothing for either of you.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1617739' date='Aug 4 2008, 11:16 PM']LOL.

My point exactly. How wonderful you are at dialogue. It doesn't matter if you believe the moon is made of coagulated milk, screaming that at someone who doesn't believe the same thing does nothing for either of you.[/quote]

Yes, [b]screaming[/b] that at someone would be rude, but it would not be incorrect factually. The moon is not made of che[color="#000000"]e[/color]se, abortion kills babies. Dialogue is great but the time comes where it must end and the person who is wrong swallow their pride and accept truth.

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1617762' date='Aug 4 2008, 10:39 PM']Yes, [b]screaming[/b] that at someone would be rude, but it would not be incorrect factually. The moon is not made of che[color="#000000"]e[/color]se, abortion kills babies. Dialogue is great but the time comes where it must end and the person who is wrong swallow their pride and accept truth.[/quote]
Well I'm sorry, but because I don't believe that the "clump of cells" inside the womb before birth is alive, I disagree that abortion is killing a baby. So you can sit and say it is murder all you want but I will always disagree, and in my world, I am correct. I can play the game too

[Deb]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1617869' date='Aug 5 2008, 02:14 AM']Well I'm sorry, but because I don't believe that the "clump of cells" inside the womb before birth is alive, I disagree that abortion is killing a baby. So you can sit and say it is murder all you want but I will always disagree, and in my world, I am correct. I can play the game too [/quote]

You are young and you are male. You have grown up in a world that has said the lie long enough that it is something you truly believe. That clump of cells has a heartbeat at 18 days. That clump of cells that are being aborted at 12 and 16 and 20 weeks is fully formed and their isn't anyone who could not identify it as a baby.
When abortion became legal, under a very flawed accident of the courts, it wasn't mainstream. Those who wanted to make money off it, those who wanted to turn it into just another form of contraceptive so women would be willing to have sex without worrying about the consequences had to sell it. It was distasteful and evil to people then too. So, it was marketed and sold. There are millions of women out there who bought the clump of cells pitch when they were young, frightened, pressured teenagers. They have been suffering for decades with post abortion stress syndrome and it is only now being recognized. 85% of women who have had abortions regret them because sooner or later, they realize it was more than a clump of cells. Women were created to bear children and they know that murdering them before they leave the womb is murder just as much as if they waited until they were born.
The men involved are wounded from it and they too are suffering. Places like planned parenthood fight to the teeth to not let this information be revealed because they make a lot of money off abortions.
Anyone who knows God exists knows this was not his plan for humanity. Every abortion is a wound in Christ's heart. Every person who is involved in abortion, whether they have one, help someone obtain one, perform one, counsel someone to get one, who does not repent, confess and be absolved, will die with the sin of murder on them.
What abortion brought in was a culture of death which has raised an entire generation like you that can't even fathom what the value of life is. It is so very very sad.
Abortion is murder. Why don't you hit the internet and take a look at some of the photos of the aborted "clumps of cells" and let me know what they remind you of.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1617869' date='Aug 5 2008, 01:14 AM']Well I'm sorry, but because I don't believe that the "clump of cells" inside the womb before birth is alive, I disagree that abortion is killing a baby. So you can sit and say it is murder all you want but I will always disagree, and in my world, I am correct. I can play the game too [/quote]

Your choice to deny truth does not change truth in this world or even your own little one. Some people disagree that gravity keeps them from flying like superman, but they soon learn truth is undeniable. So long as your full of bitterness you will fail to see the truth.

Edited August 5, 2008 by KnightofChrist

[Winchester]

The labels are used to simplify things, but also to sanitize ideas. No one wants 'abortion' to be what they're for. We all know it's wrong. Thus the decision to remove it from the typical labels and use "Pro-choice."

It's a euphemism.

It think pro legalized infanticide is the proper term, but it takes too long to say. People won't go for it. Pro-murder seems to broad.

There is not one logical argument for denying that the unborn human is a human. There is not one logical argument for permitting abortion, but not the killing of infants. Not one. But our post-modern thinkers are typically too weak to acknowledge this. They won't admit it's a distinction based solely on convenience. No one will say: I don't want this baby because it's inconvenient and I am the stronger of the two. They make it an issue of rights and control over ones body. They sidestep the reality, which is that an unborn child is pretty much incapable of preventing its own murder, and since it doesn't make noises or look at you, it's easier to justify the murder. There is no real difference between scraping an unborn child out of the womb or dashing the head of a born one against the wall, apart from the accidents of the mess it causes. This is the reality, and I wish the pro abortion groups would get up the huevos to admit it. Then I could respect them as honest, at least.

[Deb]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1618128' date='Aug 5 2008, 12:53 PM']The labels are used to simplify things, but also to sanitize ideas. No one wants 'abortion' to be what they're for. We all know it's wrong. Thus the decision to remove it from the typical labels and use "Pro-choice."

It's a euphemism.

It think pro legalized infanticide is the proper term, but it takes too long to say. People won't go for it. Pro-murder seems to broad.

There is not one logical argument for denying that the unborn human is a human. There is not one logical argument for permitting abortion, but not the killing of infants. Not one. But our post-modern thinkers are typically too weak to acknowledge this. They won't admit it's a distinction based solely on convenience. No one will say: I don't want this baby because it's inconvenient and I am the stronger of the two. They make it an issue of rights and control over ones body. They sidestep the reality, which is that an unborn child is pretty much incapable of preventing its own murder, and since it doesn't make noises or look at you, it's easier to justify the murder. There is no real difference between scraping an unborn child out of the womb or dashing the head of a born one against the wall, apart from the accidents of the mess it causes. This is the reality, and I wish the pro abortion groups would get up the huevos to admit it. Then I could respect them as honest, at least.[/quote]

Amen Brother!

[jmjtina]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1617869' date='Aug 5 2008, 12:14 AM']Well I'm sorry, but because I don't believe that the "clump of cells" inside the womb before birth is alive, I disagree that abortion is killing a baby. So you can sit and say it is murder all you want but I will always disagree, and in my world, I am correct. I can play the game too [/quote]

Truth is not subjective.

Therefore, if you choose to believe the sky in your world is purple with grapes in it, doesn't change the reality of what the sky actually is.