Pro-abortion Or Pro-choice

[Farsight one]

*having not read most of the topic*

I'd stick with pro-choice. If we start using pro-abortion, they'll just start using "anti-choice" to refer to us and we won't get anywhere. Some think "pro-abortion" is offensive too.

[friendofJPII]

[quote name='Farsight one' post='1614914' date='Aug 1 2008, 06:40 AM']*having not read most of the topic*

I'd stick with pro-choice. If we start using pro-abortion, they'll just start using "anti-choice" to refer to us and we won't get anywhere. Some think "pro-abortion" is offensive too.[/quote]


I'll call them pro-choice if they wil call me pro-life. Origially, it was pro-life/pro-choice. Now it is anti-abortion, abortion-rights, or anti-choice, pro-abortion.

Edited August 1, 2008 by friendofJPII

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='friendofJPII' post='1614970' date='Aug 1 2008, 12:05 PM']I'll call them pro-choice if they wil call me pro-life. Origially, it was pro-life/pro-choice. Now it is anti-abortion, abortion-rights, or anti-choice, pro-abortion.[/quote]
If they are pro-choice they believe in the murder of children. They can say "well I wouldn't murder my children, but its ok if other people do" and that really doesn't change the facts, does it. They are still pro-death, if not for themselves but for others.
For how many crimes do we say ifs ok if you steal from a bank or drive drunk, its not my choice, but feel free?

The people who support the slicing and dicing of other human beings are PRO-DEATH.

[StColette]

[quote name='Farsight one' post='1614914' date='Aug 1 2008, 07:40 AM']Some think "pro-abortion" is offensive too.[/quote]

The killing of innocent children is what is offensive.


I tend to say pro-abortion, because pro-choice can have so many different meanings. I know some pro-abortion people who are anti-death penalty, meaning they don't believe in it's use (kinda ironic). So for clarification sake I say pro-abortion.

[Didymus]

I would think the same goes for 'pro-life.' So many pro-life folks are [i]for[/i] the death penalty.

If we wanted to be clear, wouldn't we call ourselves 'pro-innocent-life'?

[friendofJPII]

[quote name='StColette' post='1615005' date='Aug 1 2008, 10:44 AM']The killing of innocent children is what is offensive.
I tend to say pro-abortion, because pro-choice can have so many different meanings. I know some pro-abortion people who are anti-death penalty, meaning they don't believe in it's use (kinda ironic). So for clarification sake I say pro-abortion.[/quote]


It's tricky. There are varying degrees of pro-life/pro-choice/pro-abortion.

So where would you place someone who claims to be pro-life, but is pro-artificial contraception and pro-stem cell research?

[StColette]

[quote name='friendofJPII' post='1615013' date='Aug 1 2008, 11:50 AM']So where would you place someone who claims to be pro-life, but is pro-artificial contraception and pro-stem cell research?[/quote]

Not really sure lol If I could place them anywhere it would be in a confessional with a Moral Theologian

[Didymus]

Here is a few of the reasons why I do use the term 'pro-choice' more often than 'pro-abortion':

[i]Pro-abortion folks really do exist[/i] - It's a frightening, disgusting reality, but there are folks out there who believe that abortion should be around, seemingly even if 'unwanted' pregnancies vanished. There are folks out there that want it for environmental excuses ("overpopulation"), or racist reasons, etc. These folks care little of what the woman chooses, and merely want her to abort her child. It is easier to turn the public against these types of people, since their motives are so blatantly hateful. Currently though, they hide amongst the pro-choice crowd, as right now abortion is so widespread and legal.

[i]We must distinguish between the ignorant and those with the agenda.[/i] - I can understand why we would say that the masterminds behind Planned Parenthood can be called pro-abortion. They must at all costs remain pro-abortion, because without abortion, they do not make money and retain their monopoly on the abortion industry. They do not make money on a woman making a free choice, they make money on selling her their abortive 'services.' Most folks who fall for their marketing, however, are ignorant to what abortion really is, and what it does not only to the child, but also to the mother. These folks, since they have no personal interest involved in the pregnant woman's choice, are actually 'pro-choice.' They are trying to do the right thing, but are mislead. One of our roles as pro-lifers is to educate them.

[i]We need to move past the rhetoric[/i] - Once we can distinguish these folks from those who deceive them, then we can have honest dialog and we can soon see the vast amounts of common ground we have with these folks. We both see the crisis here - unwanted pregnancies - the main difference between us being that they are being deceived by the agenda makers into believe that abortion is a compassionate option for the woman. It is not difficult to move these folks into our favor. We only need honest, compassionate dialog. If the conversation is initiated without first showing them respect (understanding that they are actually pro-choice and not pro-abortion or anti-life) then the conversation does not move easily into the next levels, which is finding that common ground, discussing differences, and proceeding to solutions. We must acknowledge their willingness to do the right thing. We can easily do this by calling them what they call themselves. It's not compromising, as they actually believe a woman should have a choice, although they mistakenly believe one of those choices not to be as evil as it truly is.

I could expound on these for days, but I keep finding myself pressed for time. I look forward to continuing this conversation, as I really believe it is one we need to have.

btw, if any of you are interested, Steve Wagner (Stand to Reason) has a really good book about dialog on this issue. I believe it is hand's down the best tool we need in the movement:
[url="https://secure2.convio.net/str/site/Ecommerce/762704948?VIEW_PRODUCT=true&product_id=6481&store_id=1161"]https://secure2.convio.net/str/site/Ecommer...p;store_id=1161[/url]

Edited August 1, 2008 by Didymus

[friendofJPII]

[quote name='StColette' post='1615016' date='Aug 1 2008, 10:52 AM']Not really sure lol If I could place them anywhere it would be in a confessional with a Moral Theologian [/quote]

lol!

[friendofJPII]

[quote name='Didymus' post='1615029' date='Aug 1 2008, 11:10 AM']Here is a few of the reasons why I do use the term 'pro-choice' more often than 'pro-abortion':

[i]Pro-abortion folks really do exist[/i] - It's a frightening, disgusting reality, but there are folks out there who believe that abortion should be around, seemingly even if 'unwanted' pregnancies vanished. There are folks out there that want it for environmental excuses ("overpopulation"), or racist reasons, etc. These folks care little of what the woman chooses, and merely want her to abort her child. It is easier to turn the public against these types of people, since their motives are so blatantly hateful. Currently though, they hide amongst the pro-choice crowd, as right now abortion is so widespread and legal.

[i]We must distinguish between the ignorant and those with the agenda.[/i] - I can understand why we would say that the masterminds behind Planned Parenthood can be called pro-abortion. They must at all costs remain pro-abortion, because without abortion, they do not make money and retain their monopoly on the abortion industry. They do not make money on a woman making a free choice, they make money on selling her their abortive 'services.' Most folks who fall for their marketing, however, are ignorant to what abortion really is, and what it does not only to the child, but also to the mother. These folks, since they have no personal interest involved in the pregnant woman's choice, are actually 'pro-choice.' They are trying to do the right thing, but are mislead. One of our roles as pro-lifers is to educate them.

[i]We need to move past the rhetoric[/i] - Once we can distinguish these folks from those who deceive them, then we can have honest dialog and we can soon see the vast amounts of common ground we have with these folks. We both see the crisis here - unwanted pregnancies - the main difference between us being that they are being deceived by the agenda makers into believe that abortion is a compassionate option for the woman. It is not difficult to move these folks into our favor. We only need honest, compassionate dialog. If the conversation is initiated without first showing them respect (understanding that they are actually pro-choice and not pro-abortion or anti-life) then the conversation does not move easily into the next levels, which is finding that common ground, discussing differences, and proceeding to solutions. We must acknowledge their willingness to do the right thing. We can easily do this by calling them what they call themselves. It's not compromising, as they actually believe a woman should have a choice, although they mistakenly believe one of those choices not to be as evil as it truly is.

I could expound on these for days, but I keep finding myself pressed for time. I look forward to continuing this conversation, as I really believe it is one we need to have.

btw, if any of you are interested, Steve Wagner (Stand to Reason) has a really good book about dialog on this issue. I believe it is hand's down the best tool we need in the movement:
[url="https://secure2.convio.net/str/site/Ecommerce/762704948?VIEW_PRODUCT=true&product_id=6481&store_id=1161"]https://secure2.convio.net/str/site/Ecommer...p;store_id=1161[/url][/quote]


Excellent post. I have a few friends who call themsleves "pro-choice" who still love life and babies. Actually, deep down, I think they are pro-life, but are afraid to go against popular thought.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Didymus' post='1615011' date='Aug 1 2008, 10:49 AM']I would think the same goes for 'pro-life.' So many pro-life folks are [i]for[/i] the death penalty.

If we wanted to be clear, wouldn't we call ourselves 'pro-innocent-life'?[/quote]

Though it will not be understood by many the Death Plenty is pro-life this is because the State's obedience to the fifth commandment via the use of the death penalty.

But as to the topic using the term "pro-choice" implies that there are two choices none of which is wrong. Since this is after all what a person who would define themselves as such would think, oh either one is ok. If someone is 'ok' with abortion whether or not they would also be ok with carrying the baby to term that person is still pro-abortion. If a distinction must be made between a citizen of this nature and say someone like John Kerry, then they should be classified as pro-death or anti-life.

Whilst we want dialog we do not want to water down the truth. Someone who is 'pro-choice' is pro-abortion, and can not be said to be pro-life so long as they support the other 'choice' but yes someone in power who greatly effects the numbers of abortions and money going to the death clinics that person is pro-death/anti-life.

Edited August 1, 2008 by KnightofChrist

[fides quarens intellectum]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1614804' date='Jul 31 2008, 11:32 PM']That's the way I've always defined it. I see "pro-choice" as the individual stating, "Personally, I would never get an abortion (or, for guys, 'I would never support abortion') but I won't stand in the way of others who want to get it done. Also, I think it should be an option for those who suffered from rape/incest." I see "pro-abortion" as the individual stating, "Abortion should be legal no matter what."[/quote]

i've known plenty of pro-abortionists (as you are defining them) who only label themselves pro-choice, though. Personally, i think i tend to call them abortion supporters/advocates.

[quote name='Farsight one' post='1614914' date='Aug 1 2008, 06:40 AM']Some think "pro-abortion" is offensive too.[/quote]

Good. Abortion is offensive.

[quote name='friendofJPII' post='1615013' date='Aug 1 2008, 10:50 AM']So where would you place someone who claims to be pro-life, but is pro-artificial contraception and pro-stem cell research?[/quote]

Personally, i wouldn't call them pro-life - probably contraceptive supporters and fetal stem-cell research advocates.

[Farsight one]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1614995' date='Aug 1 2008, 11:29 AM']If they are pro-choice they believe in the murder of children. They can say "well I wouldn't murder my children, but its ok if other people do" and that really doesn't change the facts, does it. They are still pro-death, if not for themselves but for others.
For how many crimes do we say ifs ok if you steal from a bank or drive drunk, its not my choice, but feel free?

The people who support the slicing and dicing of other human beings are PRO-DEATH.[/quote]The problem is that "pro-abortion" and "pro-death" already have their own followers and meanings.

All of these groups actually exist:
anti-abortion = those against abortion
pro-life = those against prematurely ending anyone's life. That means they're against abortion, euthanasia, the death penalty, etc.
pro-choice = the decision whether or not to keep the child is up to the mother
pro-abortion = believe that abortion should be mandatory past a certain point (like in China)
pro-death = believe that abortion and euthanasia, death penalty, etc. should be mandatory past a certain point.

[quote name='StColette' post='1615005' date='Aug 1 2008, 11:44 AM']The killing of innocent children is what is offensive.
I tend to say pro-abortion, because pro-choice can have so many different meanings. I know some pro-abortion people who are anti-death penalty, meaning they don't believe in it's use (kinda ironic). So for clarification sake I say pro-abortion.[/quote]
True. But the point was that if you offend someone, they're going to be far less likely to listen to your argument. It's generally best not to offend someone if you want to bring them to your cause.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Farsight one' post='1614914' date='Aug 1 2008, 06:40 AM']*having not read most of the topic*

I'd stick with pro-choice. If we start using pro-abortion, they'll just start using "anti-choice" to refer to us and we won't get anywhere. Some think "pro-abortion" is offensive too.[/quote]
Generally they just call us bigots or chauvinist these days.

[Autumn Dusk]

I think that the legacy words are "pro-life" and "pro-choice" but they may not be appropriate anymore. As mentioned above many "pro-lifers" are for the death penalty and many "pro-choicers" aren't against abortion as a whole. EG. no late term. So those words don't accuately describe either.