Pro-abortion Or Pro-choice

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1653567' date='Sep 11 2008, 10:51 PM']I hadn't thought of it in terms of what the butchers actually deserve. Good point DJ. However, one may not do evil in hopes that a good would result.[/quote]


I know better than to respond to this like I want to. Not because I will get in trouble or anything... I can support my position with Church teaching, but I already have one storm to deal with this weekend I don't need another one. Suffice it to say my opinion on the matter has not changed since the last 5 or 6 times we had that arguement.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1653600' date='Sep 11 2008, 10:58 PM']I know and I agree with you, I just hadn't thought of it in those terms. You forgot the shot of potassium chloride in the heart [ a method of execution favored by the Nazis] or the scissors in the back of the head with the brains sucked out. Maybe if people thought about what they were actually doing to their children, they would reconsider. Maybe.[/quote]


Well you can read my post on another thread to see my opinion on that.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Didymus' post='1653570' date='Sep 11 2008, 09:51 PM']This thread isn't about debating Church Teaching. It's about which term (pro-choice or pro-abortion) will better save the lives of women and unborn children[/quote]

On matters of faith and morals, which is what this is it is important. Also and very importantly I merely responded [b]directly[/b] to your post, in which you yourself brought other matters than just which term will better save the lives of women and unborn children.

I was simply and directly correcting errors in your post with what the Church actually teachings.

Again, since this topic is of faith and morals, Church teaching does apply. The truth must be told, being 'pro-choice' is pro-abortion, because someone who is 'pro-choice' supports in whatever way for what ever reason abortion.

It is better the truth be told. Pro-choice is deceitful. It hides the fact that being 'pro-choice' is pro-abortion, and that abortion is murder, and genocide.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Didymus' post='1653604' date='Sep 11 2008, 11:00 PM']i refuse to argue this pointless misunderstanding. Go back and read what happened. I was discussing the meaning of the terms pro-life, in lieu of what someone had said about being pro-choice because of the broader context of the word. I did not bring up Church Teaching and what God has or has not bestowed upon the state,[/quote]


No? I understand what you are saying, but you made a statement which was simply offensive to some and this is a result of that kind of statement.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1653609' date='Sep 12 2008, 12:02 AM']I know better than to respond to this like I want to. Not because I will get in trouble or anything... I can support my position with Church teaching, but I already have one storm to deal with this weekend I don't need another one. Suffice it to say my opinion on the matter has not changed since the last 5 or 6 times we had that arguement.[/quote]
Understood and agreed, there are times when being a christian is a hinderance to ones natural desires.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Didymus' post='1653220' date='Sep 11 2008, 02:15 PM']for that matter so is pro-life though, since many [i]if not most[/i] "pro-lifers" are for aggressive military action (which results in many unnecessary deaths) and the death penalty in the U.S.[/quote]
both of which, unlike the killing of the innocent by abortion, have legitimate application, as the Church plainly teaches.
And there are plenty of pro-lifers who are also against the death penalty and against the war in Iraq, but I'm not going to hijack this thread into yet another debate on those topics.
And most liberals ("pro-choice" or no) regard America's fighting in WWII as legitimate, even though that war cost many more lives than the current one. By your standards, only a total pacifist could be regarded as "pro-life," and extremely few people, liberal or conservative, actually hold such a view.

The truth remains that the issue at stake in the abortion debate IS the [b]life[/b] of the unborn child, not "choice" - which is a vague, pleasant-sounding diversion from the real issue.
There remains absolutely no compelling reason for pro-lifers to adopt language [i]which is deliberately crafted to detract from the truth of our cause[/i].

Edited September 12, 2008 by Socrates

[Saint Therese]

how about pro-infanticide?

[cmotherofpirl]

Slice and dice crowd covers it, and is more to the truth.

[Didymus]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1653684' date='Sep 12 2008, 12:04 AM']Slice and dice crowd covers it, and is more to the truth.[/quote]

unless the baby is burned alive.. Do those babies endure less? If we banned all abortions performed with the knife, would you be happy? It's wrong because it is an affront to the dignity of human life and the dignity of women.. not just because of "slicing and dicing"

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Didymus' post='1659052' date='Sep 19 2008, 12:09 PM']unless the baby is burned alive.. Do those babies endure less? If we banned all abortions performed with the knife, would you be happy? It's wrong because it is an affront to the dignity of human life and the dignity of women.. not just because of "slicing and dicing"[/quote]


Hey I mentioned caustic chemicals before.

May I ask, why is abortion the only form of murder where we pity the perpetrator of the crime, who premeditates and acts on her premeditation? Women who kill their babies are murders, they have commited infanticide on their own child. The dignity of child murders has already been expunged by their own actions.

[Didymus]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' post='1661820' date='Sep 23 2008, 12:21 PM']May I ask, why is abortion the only form of murder where we pity the perpetrator of the crime, who premeditates and acts on her premeditation? Women who kill their babies are murders, they have commited infanticide on their own child. The dignity of child murders has already been expunged by their own actions.[/quote]

you may, and I would say that it is not a matter of "pity" per se. But to answer your question more effectively, I would say that with every case where someone kills another human being, circumstances are always brought up. If you hear of a case that a man knifed another man, I would assume one of your first thoughts is whether it was a murder, or whether in fact the man did it out of self defense, or whatever. Obviously I'm not saying that abortion is ever a matter of self-defense, but what I am saying is that one needs to bring circumstance into the picture when comparing abortion to legal murder or manslaughter.

In most cases of abortion - virtually all abortions that are done as a result of some level of poverty or because the woman is "too young - the woman feels she has no other choice. It is not a question of whether she hadn't any morals to make a good choice, it is that she felt that there was no other choice available to her...

This needs to be taken into account when we compare women who have had abortions to murderers. Would you be willing to tell this woman to her face that she is a murderer? I hope not.. She probably doesn't even have the constitution to knowingly kill a person, and most probably is struggling with the fact that she procured the death of her child.

Now this all changes if you're talking about the less common case where a woman or couple repeatedly uses abortion as a means of birth control, but I would be willing to believe that an overwhelming number of folks in society would agree that abortion should not be used for birth control, and would agree with you, as I.

Edited September 23, 2008 by Didymus

[Terra Pax]

[quote name='Didymus' post='1662088' date='Sep 23 2008, 07:57 PM']you may, and I would say that it is not a matter of "pity" per se. But to answer your question more effectively, I would say that with every case where someone kills another human being, circumstances are always brought up. If you hear of a case that a man knifed another man, I would assume one of your first thoughts is whether it was a murder, or whether in fact the man did it out of self defense, or whatever. Obviously I'm not saying that abortion is ever a matter of self-defense, but what I am saying is that one needs to bring circumstance into the picture when comparing abortion to legal murder or manslaughter.

In most cases of abortion - virtually all abortions that are done as a result of some level of poverty or because the woman is "too young - the woman feels she has no other choice. It is not a question of whether she hadn't any morals to make a good choice, it is that she felt that there was no other choice available to her...

This needs to be taken into account when we compare women who have had abortions to murderers. Would you be willing to tell this woman to her face that she is a murderer? I hope not.. She probably doesn't even have the constitution to knowingly kill a person, and most probably is struggling with the fact that she procured the death of her child.

Now this all changes if you're talking about the less common case where a woman or couple repeatedly uses abortion as a means of birth control, but I would be willing to believe that an overwhelming number of folks in society would agree that abortion should not be used for birth control, and would agree with you, as I.[/quote]
I agree.

A murder is a murder is a murder, objectively, but based on situations, just as in other murder cases, there is always circumstances. A lot of women who have an abortion don't even understand what they are getting themselves into. While it is fair to call an abortion "murder," it isn't necessarily categorize everyone who gets an abortion in such graphic and harsh terms. We should be praying for and helping those who don't understand the evils of abortion, not calling them murderers and expecting them to somehow have a change of heart.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Didymus' post='1662088' date='Sep 23 2008, 07:57 PM']you may, and I would say that it is not a matter of "pity" per se. But to answer your question more effectively, I would say that with every case where someone kills another human being, circumstances are always brought up. If you hear of a case that a man knifed another man, I would assume one of your first thoughts is whether it was a murder, or whether in fact the man did it out of self defense, or whatever. Obviously I'm not saying that abortion is ever a matter of self-defense, but what I am saying is that one needs to bring circumstance into the picture when comparing abortion to legal murder or manslaughter.

In most cases of abortion - virtually all abortions that are done as a result of some level of poverty or because the woman is "too young - the woman feels she has no other choice. It is not a question of whether she hadn't any morals to make a good choice, it is that she felt that there was no other choice available to her...

This needs to be taken into account when we compare women who have had abortions to murderers. Would you be willing to tell this woman to her face that she is a murderer? I hope not.. She probably doesn't even have the constitution to knowingly kill a person, and most probably is struggling with the fact that she procured the death of her child.

Now this all changes if you're talking about the less common case where a woman or couple repeatedly uses abortion as a means of birth control, but I would be willing to believe that an overwhelming number of folks in society would agree that abortion should not be used for birth control, and would agree with you, as I.[/quote]


In my experiance very ew abortions are procured because the women feels she has no choice. On the contrary, they have it because they believe that indeed they do have a choice. I have known many women who have had abortions, I have known 1 who truely believed she had no choice, she was heavly pressured by her parents at 16. Ironicly, she is the only one I know who took responsiblity for the fact that indeed she had murdered her own child. To answer your question, would a tell a women to her face that she is a murderer for aborrting her child... YES. I have. I believe that one of the reasons that we are losing the war on abortion is that we do not call it what it is, and we do not call the perpetrators of the crime, what they are, murderers. If you lie your a lier, if you steal your a thief, if you commit adultery your an adulterer, if you murder your a murderer.

Edited September 24, 2008 by Don John of Austria

[Didymus]

and what exactly is your experience?

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Didymus' post='1659052' date='Sep 19 2008, 01:09 PM']unless the baby is burned alive.. Do those babies endure less? If we banned all abortions performed with the knife, would you be happy? It's wrong because it is an affront to the dignity of human life and the dignity of women.. not just because of "slicing and dicing"[/quote]
Silly question as if burning a baby to death is no less horrible than chopping it to pieces. I use the term "slice and dice" because I want people who are pro-choice to THINK about what they are actually doing to another human being. How about "slice/dice and burn"?