Total Consecration

[mommas_boy]

Blessings, HisChildForever!

I am writing because you raise a lot of important questions about Marian Theology (Mariology). My main concern is to flesh out some responses for our protestant brothers and sisters that visit this board, and specifically this thread. It is a grave scandal to ignore these questions.

We will begin with the most important, first.

I forgot to grab this quote, but that's OK. You mentioned that Jesus != Mary (Jesus and Mary are not the same). You continued that Mary is not God.

Both of these statements are fundamentally true. As has been stated before, Marian devotion is about devotion to Christ. So why not be devoted directly to Christ? You wisely point this out here:

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1616168' date='Aug 2 2008, 09:11 PM']I know It just makes me super wary. Shouldn't we be leaping at the chance to consecrate ourselves to Jesus?[/quote]

Well, we should be devoted directly to Christ. But this does not rule out having other devotions to AID our devotion to Christ. Here is the key:

[quote name='friendofJPII' post='1616170' date='Aug 2 2008, 09:14 PM']It is difficult to understand, but when we consecrate ourselves to Jesus, we are consecrating ourselves to Mary, and vice versa. Jesus and Mary are so closley united. [b]His will is her will, and Her will is His will[/b].[/quote]

Mary submitted her will to Christ's will when she said "Yes" at the Annunciation. Whether or not she submitted her will completely to Him throughout her life is immaterial; what we are after here is the model that she set for us in this simple act of submissal. She said yes to Christ, we want to as well. Mary's "yes" at the Annunciation teaches us that we must be submissive to the will of God above all things. So, when we seek a model of submission to God, we follow Mary's example in her "yes".

Mary's submission to God's will has two effects:
[list=1]
[*]In a devotion to Mary, we are asking her to teach us to submit to Christ like she did. We need teachers in the faith; role models to follow. We are asking Mary to be our role model.
[*]In submitting ourselves to the will of Mary, we have every assurance that she will not only teach us to be submissive to Christ's will, but also that her will is Christ's will. This is because she submits her own will to Christ. Christ's will is more important than her own to her, and so she has no will apart from His, she submits that fully. Thus, we are assured that submission to the will of Mary is submission to the will of Christ.
[/list]
In summary, submission to Mary not only better teaches us to submit to Christ, but is actually submission to Christ in itself. It's a WIN-WIN.

But again, you could say:

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1616168' date='Aug 2 2008, 09:11 PM']I know It just makes me super wary. Shouldn't we be leaping at the chance to consecrate ourselves to Jesus?[/quote]

The next motivation is one of humility. Mary is not Christ, but [b]Mary's will[/b] is [b]Christ's will[/b] by virtue of her submittal at the Annunciation. Still, though, [b]what's the difference[/b], one would ask. That is, if Mary's will is Christ's will, then there is no difference between submitting directly to Christ (which is the goal of Marian devotion), and submitting to Mary.

Except that Christ is God, and we as horrible sinners are to be ashamed at our sin in the presence of Him. I am not saying that we should not approach Christ, only that there should be in our minds a sense of humility in doing so. Approaching Mary allows us to build this sense of humility so that we can then approach Christ with the humbleness that He deserves. When we approach Mary to indirectly petition Christ, that action reminds us of our sin and unworthiness to approach Christ. But Christ still calls us to Him! And so, now reminded of our sinfulness by approaching Mary first, we are able to approach Christ with the proper mindset. Marian devotion is not about [b]replacing[/b] Christian devotion, it is about enhancing it. We approach Mary, we are made humble, and then we approach Christ in full sorrow for our sins. Both-and.

You also mentioned "slavery to Mary". Again, slavery is another way to express submittal to the will of another. Slavery to Mary is thus submittal to her will. As discussed above, submittal to Mary's will is submittal to Christ.

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1616109' date='Aug 2 2008, 08:07 PM']This would be ten times easier if the Scriptures actually said, outright, "Mary is the Queen of Heaven"[/quote]

But the scriptures DO say this.

According to the Old Testament, and Hebrew Tradition, the queen of Israel/Judah was always the mother of the king. This was especially important for Soloman, who had many wives, and thus the queen would have been unclear if the queen was his wife.

Christ is the king of heavan, and therefore (according to Hebrew tradition), Mary is His queen.

Let me put it to you this way. I believe that reverse logic is the proper way to examine Marian Theology. So try this on for size: "If Mary is the queen of heavan, then therefore Christ is the King." According to this logic, whether or not Christ actually crowned Mary as Queen of heavan is immaterial. What is important is the final statement: Christ is King of heavan. Marian Theology thus has value as a Christology; that is, it teaches us about Christ.

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1616109' date='Aug 2 2008, 08:07 PM']Alright, you can say that there are parallels with her to the Ark, but would it be so hard for St. Paul to jot this down in a paragraph or two?[/quote]

Same Old Testament logic on the Ark. The Ark in the OT is what held the covenant, that is, the Ten Commandments. Thus, we can use our same formula as before:

"If Mary is the Ark of the Covenant, then therefore Christ is the Covenant."

Again, the title only has meaning because it is a reflection of Christ.

We can continue through the Litany of Loreto using the same logic. Again, the formula is:

"If Mary is __________, then therefore Christ is __________."

[quote]Mother of divine grace
Seat of wisdom
Mirror of justice
Spiritual vessel
House of gold
Gate of heavan
etc.[/quote]

Others are harder to figure out, for instance, Mary as the "Morning Star". The morning star does not refer to the sun, but rather to stars that come out just before sunrise to herald the rising of the sun. Thus, the morning star teaches of the true message: the Sun (or Son, as the case may be). Thus, our formula would read: "If Mary is the Morning Star, then therefore Christ is the Sun."

Note that it is true that it does not necessarily follow to say "If Christ is the Sun, Mary is the Morning Star". This is indeed a logical fallacy. What we're advocating here is not that the title is befitting of Mary -- you've missed the point if you believe that's what we're advocating -- but rather that the title teaches us something about Christ. These statements ONLY have value in what they teach us about Christ, not what they teach us about Mary.

Going back to the slavery bit, our formula reads:

"If we are a slave of Mary, then we are a slave of Christ."

This does not mean that slavery to Mary is the only form of slavery to Christ. Again, as mentioned above, it does not follow that "If we are a slave of Christ, then we are a slave of Mary". The statement only has theological value if it is ordered so that Christ is the recipient of the object.

I want to wrap this post up, because it is starting to get random (and it's starting to get late, which explains why this is so random). Here's what I want to wrap this post up with:
[list=1]
[*]Devotion to Mary ONLY has value because it is devotion to Christ (If Mary ____, then therefore Christ ____), and not the other way around.
[*]Consecration to Mary is not required to live a Christian life; only highly advised.
[/list]
I hope that this helps, and that I didn't become too pedantic as it became late.

Pax Christi,
Kris

[HisChildForever]

Thank you so much for taking the time to write such a beautiful (and long!) reply. I'm also falling asleep and will properly reply tomorrow

[mommas_boy]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1616289' date='Aug 3 2008, 12:06 AM']Thank you so much for taking the time to write such a beautiful (and long!) reply. I'm also falling asleep and will properly reply tomorrow [/quote]

Yeah. I apologize about the length. I tried to repeat myself a couple of times on points that I thought were too crucial to skim over and force the reader to get them. Please note that you aren't my only intended audience.

Pax Christi,
Kris

[johnnydigit]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1616109' date='Aug 2 2008, 06:07 PM']This would be ten times easier if the Scriptures actually said, outright, "Mary is the Queen of Heaven" or if the apostles (like in Acts or the epistles) literally spoke about Mary and her perfection. Clearly she plays a huge role in the Church - seeing as she's considerably important and there's talk of becoming a "slave" to her, wouldn't it only make sense for all this devotion to be listed in Scriptures? It's like the snowball affect - more and more gets added about her over time when there was so little in the Bible to begin with. Alright, you can say that there are parallels with her to the Ark, but would it be so hard for St. Paul to jot this down in a paragraph or two? Those links you provided, I see lots of fancy words but where are the references? I am thirsting for answers to these questions that I simply can't find anywhere. So much Marian devotion borders on worship and it's simply wrong. She deserves honor but not worship.[/quote]

wouldn't a million things about our faith be so much easier if Jesus just told them to write it out easily and straight forward! so the question to ponder is, why didn't God, who knows everything, and who knew that we would struggle so much with it, write it out easily then?

if you don't feel comfortable with Mary right now, that's fine. just remain open, and if you are curious, ask God to help you understand why Catholics have such a strong devotion to her. that's what i did, i just asked. be careful what you ask for though, because God may lay the smack down on you like you asked for, just like he did with me. oh how beautiful was it when i finally discovered her beauty! how regretful to have waited so long! so late have i loved thee, so ancient and so new!

remember, you may *feel* it's wrong now, but there are logical reasons why our Church doesn't. have faith. search and you will find, knock and He will answer you. guaranteed!

[johnnydigit]

[quote name='johnnydigit' post='1616338' date='Aug 2 2008, 11:39 PM']wouldn't a million things about our faith be so much easier if Jesus just told them to write it out easily and straight forward! so the question to ponder is, why didn't God, who knows everything, and who knew that we would struggle so much with it, write it out easily then?[/quote]

my speculation is that God wants us, His people, His Church, to help each other. God could intervene in our lives more directly, but He wants us to rely on each other. He wants us to love each other and to be His hands and feet for each other. He gave us a guideline, a Book of Instructions Before Leaving Earth (B.I.B.L.E.), but He only left enough that He felt was enough, and left out enough for us to have faith and trust in the Church, the people He left to guide us the rest of the way. have faith not only in God, not only in Jesus, but also in His Catholic Church, the Body of Christ, His people, your Mother, your brothers and sisters.

[HisChildForever]

Okay. So what you said, Kris, does make sense - all devotion to Mary basically brings more devotion to Christ. I understand your formula: love of Mary is reflected onto Christ, love of Christ isn't reflected onto Mary. (The latter would be wrong and suggest that Mary is divine, right?)

So earlier in this thread, TeresaBenedicta posted this:

[quote]But Mary, as Queen of Heaven and Earth, as Coredemtrix, and as Mediatrix DOES have the same power as Jesus Christ. Not on her own merit, though. What Jesus has by nature is Mary's by Divine Grace. At any moment God could revoke her power. But He doesn't.[/quote]

This boggles my mind. Coredemtrix?! Mediatrix?! [i] Mary has the same power as Jesus? [/i] Isn't that like saying we might as well pray to Mary and not Jesus, if she has the same power He does? But Jesus = God, Mary = creature

[Deb]

I consecrated myself to Mary this year. I know many people who have done so, including my priest. This is not an unusual consecration but, it is a beautiful one and it is one of the oldest ones. I will renew mine at the renunciation. I felt compelled to do this because it is Mary who brought me to her son to begin with.

Mary is not only the mother of Jesus, she is also the mother of all of God's adopted children. Why would we not go to our mother with a concern or a request? In the days of Kings, the wife of the King was not the Queen, it was his mother. She alone could bring things to him or meet with him in ways that no one else in the Kingdom could do. One might go to the Queen first so that she could soften up or perfect the request being made to the King. So, it is with Mary.

This is not worship, this is respect and honor being given to the Mother of God. She wishes to bring all souls to her son. She can help us become virtuous. At Fatima Our Blessed Mother asked for consecration to her Immaculate Heart. This consecration predates that event. The Gospa has spoken to many throughout history requesting this. When we offer ourselves to Mary, we are asking her to help lead us along the way of the Cross.

Lest there should be any misconception about the place of devotion to Mary in Catholic piety, we honor in a special way the Immaculate Heart of the Mother of Jesus, i.e., the person of Mary in her eminent sanctity and glorification by God, because it is the wish of her Son — as Our Lady revealed in her second apparition at Fatima. Jesus knows well that true devotion to His Mother leads souls to Him. As Pope Paul VI wrote in his encyclical celebrating the centenary of the apparitions at Lourdes:

[i]“Everything in Mary leads us toward her Son, our only Savior, by whose foreseen merits she was preserved immaculate and full of grace; everything in Mary lifts up our hearts to the praise of the Holy Trinity.”

[/i]Mary is not the goal, but she is our guide.

Beseeching Mary to pray for us, to guide us, to help us on our path to Jesus is not worship. It is asking what one would ask of any loving Mother, to bring us to the greatest good for our souls. Ask yourself how much Jesus loved his mother and how he would want us to love her? Denying her place in the Kingdom, which God gave her in heaven is only robbing oneself of an incredible advocate for oneself before God.

[mommas_boy]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1617025' date='Aug 4 2008, 12:27 PM']I understand your formula: love of Mary is reflected onto Christ, love of Christ isn't reflected onto Mary. (The latter would be wrong and suggest that Mary is divine, right?)[/quote]

That is correct.

[quote]So earlier in this thread, TeresaBenedicta posted this:
This boggles my mind. [b]Coredemtrix[/b]?! [b]Mediatrix[/b]?! [i] Mary has the same power as Jesus? [/i] Isn't that like saying we might as well pray to Mary and not Jesus, if she has the same power He does? But Jesus = God, Mary = creature [/quote]

The term Coredemptrix refers to Mary's [b]co[/b]operation with Christ's redemptive mission. Again, we can examine this with the reverse logic that I mentioned above: "If Mary is the coredemptrix, then therefore Christ is the Redeemer."

The simple matter of life in Christ is that we are all coredemptors and coredemptrices (plural: coredemptrix). We all cooperate with Christ's saving mission through evangelizing to others and simply being Christ to them. Indeed, Christ's saving mission of the Gospel would be impossible without our cooperation in preaching it. That's quite a responsibility. Mary, as the [b]first[/b] to fulfill this role, is called [b]the[/b] coredemptrix.

The term mediatrix is similar. "If Mary is the mediatrix, then therefore Christ is what is being mediated." That is to say, Christ is the message being conveyed. The term mediatrix is also used to say that Mary is the "mediatrix of all graces"; again, all graces come from Christ. To say that Mary bore Christ to the world is to say that Mary brought all graces to the world. The important point is that this role is permanent, and is not completed with the birth of Christ; Mary continues to shower us with the graces of her Son from Heaven.

Again, we are also all mediators and mediatrices of Christ through evangelization.

In summary, these terms are again used as teaching tools to teach us about Christ. What is also remarkable is that Mary's role as these teaches us that we must also assume these roles in our daily lives in evangelizing to others.

[johnnydigit]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1617025' date='Aug 4 2008, 10:27 AM']Okay. So what you said, Kris, does make sense - all devotion to Mary basically brings more devotion to Christ. I understand your formula: love of Mary is reflected onto Christ, love of Christ isn't reflected onto Mary. (The latter would be wrong and suggest that Mary is divine, right?)[/quote]

i would say love of Christ *is* reflected onto Mary in a sense, but not in divinity. if we follow Mary's example, her love of Christ and devotion to God is so perfect that we should do the same. if we follow Christ's example, His love for Mary is so perfect that we should do the same. in doing so it reflects back to God again. Christ's divinity and humanity remains in tact, and Mary's humanity remains in tact.

i'm thinking a problem with protestants not accepting any of this is because they only see Jesus. there is so much corruption and hurt going on, that they only want to hold onto what they know is absolutely pure, Jesus. they are too emotionally scarred to risk looking anywhere else. this is fine and good and we are told to not lose focus of God, but in the fullness of the faith, God has provided us with many tools and much, much more in addition to, but not replacing, Jesus (e.g. the Sacraments, the Church). one of these is the Holy Family.

the basic human family consists of a father, mother, and son. in heaven, God is the Father, Jesus is the Son, and God gave Mary as the mother. God is fully divine, Jesus is fully divine and fully human, and finally Mary is fully human. it's kind of like a chain, connection or bridge from heaven to earth. while on earth, Jesus needed a physical father, and God provided Joseph. Father+mother+Son in heaven, father+mother+son on earth. in heaven or on earth, God is our Father, Mary is our mother, and Jesus is our brother. we're like adopted children.

what's also interesting is that when we look at the heavenly family, Mary kinda represents the spot of the Holy Spirit. she was joined with the Holy Spirit when He descended on her at the Annunciation. Mary is a type of Church and a type of Holy Spirit (typology).

fascinating stuff, and only the beginning. wait until you learn about her role in all of Salvation history, her cosmic role and presence, as in the universe. God, in His infinite being, cannot be contained. However, the tiny womb of Mary contained that which is not containable, in the form of the baby Jesus. fascinating..

[TeresaBenedicta]

[quote name='mommas_boy' post='1617054' date='Aug 4 2008, 02:05 PM']That is correct.
The term Coredemptrix refers to Mary's [b]co[/b]operation with Christ's redemptive mission. Again, we can examine this with the reverse logic that I mentioned above: "If Mary is the coredemptrix, then therefore Christ is the Redeemer."

The simple matter of life in Christ is that we are all coredemptors and coredemptrices (plural: coredemptrix). We all cooperate with Christ's saving mission through evangelizing to others and simply being Christ to them. Indeed, Christ's saving mission of the Gospel would be impossible without our cooperation in preaching it. That's quite a responsibility. Mary, as the [b]first[/b] to fulfill this role, is called [b]the[/b] coredemptrix.

The term mediatrix is similar. "If Mary is the mediatrix, then therefore Christ is what is being mediated." That is to say, Christ is the message being conveyed. The term mediatrix is also used to say that Mary is the "mediatrix of all graces"; again, all graces come from Christ. To say that Mary bore Christ to the world is to say that Mary brought all graces to the world. The important point is that this role is permanent, and is not completed with the birth of Christ; Mary continues to shower us with the graces of her Son from Heaven.

Again, we are also all mediators and mediatrices of Christ through evangelization.

In summary, these terms are again used as teaching tools to teach us about Christ. What is also remarkable is that Mary's role as these teaches us that we must also assume these roles in our daily lives in evangelizing to others.[/quote]


Awesome post.

[HisChildForever]

I greatly appreciate all of the explanations because they have helped me come to a better understanding. I still have that feeling, though, chewing on the back of my brain, that something just isn't right about a lot of Marian doctrine.

[johnnydigit]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1617591' date='Aug 4 2008, 09:33 PM']I greatly appreciate all of the explanations because they have helped me come to a better understanding. I still have that feeling, though, chewing on the back of my brain, that something just isn't right about a lot of Marian doctrine.[/quote]

no problem. be open and keep learning. hang around some Marian people and ask them what their problem is.

[mommas_boy]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1617591' date='Aug 4 2008, 11:33 PM']I greatly appreciate all of the explanations because they have helped me come to a better understanding. I still have that feeling, though, chewing on the back of my brain, that something just isn't right about a lot of Marian doctrine.[/quote]

I find in my "arguments" with others, there are two components: the intellectual, and then the "everything else". The "everything else" includes emotional and spiritual aspects. There's probably other stuff thrown in there too, for flavor.

The point is, my only hope in teaching the Faith can be to enlighten my student to the intellectual aspect. God is always the one who is in charge of true conversion -- that is, conversion of the heart.

In short, I would expect you to have this feeling. You have described it as exactly that: a feeling. You have seen the intellectual aspect, and you believe it, based on what I have seen in your posts. Still, there is this feeling, as you say. That feeling is God's job. It's also OK to have, and by no means should you kick yourself for having it. Give it time, and give it prayer.

What I can help you with, as your brother in Christ, is answering anymore questions that you have. That way, you can take those answers to prayer. So, please feel free to make this thread your own and ask any questions that you might have about Our Mother.

Pax Christi,
Kris

[TeresaBenedicta]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1617591' date='Aug 5 2008, 12:33 AM']I greatly appreciate all of the explanations because they have helped me come to a better understanding. I still have that feeling, though, chewing on the back of my brain, that something just isn't right about a lot of Marian doctrine.[/quote]

You know, I'm kind of in your boat as well.

I've been learning about Mary's role and I've come to know and accept the intellectual side of things... but I'm still struggling with that 'feeling'. Which is why I haven't yet consecrated.

It's slowly getting better. But I don't know if I'll ever be ready to consecrate. I don't know if that's something I'm necessarily called to.

[johnnydigit]

do it in a group so you can blame it on peer pressure.