HisChildForever Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 (edited) In the Bible, doesn't St. Paul often make remarks about being a slave to Christ? Such devout servitude, I believe, should only be given to Jesus Christ. While Mary is a remarkable woman and worthy of our honor, she is just that, a woman. She's not divine. Edited July 31, 2008 by HisChildForever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominicansoul Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 I am a slave to more things I feel uncomfortable of admitting... a slave to concupiscence a slave to my job a slave to my bad habits, etc... Saying I am a slave to Mary doesn't make me feel uncomfortable in the least. St. Louis de Montfort probably explains the whole relationship with Mary-in-relation-to-Jesus the best I have ever found in the Church. Truly saying I am a slave to Mary is saying I am a slave to Her Son, Jesus Christ. The DSMME made this consecration a part of their formation. Every single member makes this consecration as part of the community. This is one of the factors that differs between DSMME and the Nashville Dominicans, which do not do the consecration as a community. I am happy to say, I love being a slave of Mary! She is helping to break the chains of slavery to the few things I mentioned above... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnydigit Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 [quote name='HisChildForever' post='1614108' date='Jul 31 2008, 11:21 AM']While Mary is a remarkable woman and worthy of our honor, she is just that, a woman. She's not divine.[/quote] fyi i would be careful when saying that phrase, as it is a very popular protestant/anti-Catholic/anti-Mary sentiment. we know she was more than just any ordinary woman, she was/is blessed among all women for all generations, she was born full of grace, she is the queen of heaven, the Immaculate heart attached with, and one with the Sacred Heart of Jesus, His mother, our mother - the mother of all mankind, she will lead us like a general does to crush the head of the serpent. no she is not divine, but she is so much more than "just that, a woman". she is so far from being an ordinary woman.. if there was an extreme opposite to such a thing, she would be at the polar end of it. i pray you look into the deposit of faith we are blessed to have as Catholics and to only get a glimpse, a tiny peek at who Mary really is, to ask and pray for a better understanding of her, and it will completely blow your mind away, guaranteed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeresaBenedicta Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 [quote name='HisChildForever' post='1614108' date='Jul 31 2008, 02:21 PM']In the Bible, doesn't St. Paul often make remarks about being a slave to Christ? Such devout servitude, I believe, should only be given to Jesus Christ. While Mary is a remarkable woman and worthy of our honor, she is just that, a woman. She's not divine.[/quote] Being a slave to Mary is just that, being a slave to Christ. Since others have mentioned True Devotion by St. Louis de Montfort, I'm going quote just a bit from his writings in order to enlighten the situation a bit... [i]61. Jesus, our Saviour, true God and true man must be the ultimeate end of all our other devotions; otherwise they would be false and misleading.[/i] So, in our devotion to the Blessed Mother, we [i]must[/i] make Christ our ends. Otherwise we are, as you've alluded to, placing Mary on the same level as the Divine. But honestly, Mary would hate to have that happen. She wants to lead us to Him. [i]73. Granting this, I say that we must belong to Jesus and serve him not just as hired servants but as willing slaves who, moved by generus love, commit themselves to his service after the manner of slaves for the honour of belonging to him. Before we were baptised we were the slaves of the devil, but baptism made us the slaves of Jesus. Christians can only be slaves of the devil or slaves of Christ. 74. What I say in an absolute sense of our Lord, I say with a relative sense of our Blessed Lady. Jesus, in choosing her as his inseparable associate in his life, death, glory and power in heaven and on earth, has given her by grace in his kingdom all the same rights and priveleges that he possesses by nature. 'All that belongs to God by nature belongs to Mary by grace,' say the saints, and, according to them, just as Jesus and Mary have the same will and power, they have also the same subjects, servants and slaves. 75. Following therefore the teaching of the saints and of many great men we can call ourselves, and become, the loving slaves of our Blessed Lady in order to become more perfect slaves of Jesus. Mary is the means our Lord chose to come to us and she is also themeans we should choose to go to him...[/i] He goes on, writing very beautifully and convincingly. I think it is key to note that his comments between the [i]absolute and relative senses[/i]. As it is... I am not yet convinced that consecration is for everyone. Or even myself, for that matter. Consecration makes so much sense to me, yet at the same time, I steer clear of actually consecrating. See, for myself, I do not have an active Marian devotion. I am not going to actively look and seek and devote myself to her, as I do with Jesus. It is very passive, it is very meek, it is very humble. Simply this: Mary, I entrust myself to your care because I know that you will not lead me astray, rather only closer to my Jesus. Keep me in your protection as I seek out Christ, as I do my best to live my life as a disciple. Let me see you as the perfect example to this life, and help me to follow in your footsteps. I am seeking out Christ and asking and trusting the Blessed Virgin to help me. What it seems to me that Sts. Louis de Montfrot and Maximillian Kolbe teach is: Seek out the Blessed Virgin, because through her will you assuredly find Christ. I do not find the latter to be wrong. But. I don't know. I think that I am more called towards the first. And maybe there's not a huge difference between the two, maybe even no difference at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommas_boy Posted July 31, 2008 Author Share Posted July 31, 2008 [quote name='johnnydigit' post='1614172' date='Jul 31 2008, 02:15 PM']but she is so much more than "just that, a woman". she is so far from being an ordinary woman.. if there was an extreme opposite to such a thing, she would be at the polar end of it.[/quote] While I agree with the basic sentiment of your post, I will point out that Mary is not the exception to womanhood, but rather re-definition of it. She is the model of true Womanhood, the archetype. Adam, as the first man, carried a unique role: he was the man to which all other men after him would be compared. So too with Eve (latin: Eva). But at the Fall, original sin corrupted them as standards for man and womanhood. Christ, as the New Adam, became the new standard for man to Whom all other men are compared. So too with Mary as the New Eve. To paraphrase St. Albert the Great, she is the new "Ave" who in her obedience has reversed "Eva's" sin of disobedience. For through woman did sin enter the world, and so too through woman must Grace. Mary restored Womanhood to its natural dignity before the fall. When Christ called Mary "Woman", he didn't do so to point out that he was cutting off relationship with her, or disrespecting her, but rather to label her as True Woman. When I encounter a woman, it is to Mary that I compare them. Her obedience, her receptivity, her faith in the unknown, her "Yes" are models of a redeemed femininity. I recommend devotion to Mary especially to men, as we are protectors of a woman's femininity. [quote name='TeresaBenedicta' post='1614182' date='Jul 31 2008, 02:24 PM']Being a slave to Mary is just that, being a slave to Christ. ... [i]61. Jesus, our Saviour, true God and true man must be the ultimeate end of all our other devotions; otherwise they would be false and misleading.[/i] So, in our devotion to the Blessed Mother, we [i]must[/i] make Christ our ends. Otherwise we are, as you've alluded to, placing Mary on the same level as the Divine. But honestly, Mary would hate to have that happen. She wants to lead us to Him.[/quote] Thank you for quoting that. My copy of True Devotion is at my parents' house. Yes, Christ is the ultimate end of True Marian Devotion. For example, my prayer over meals: "My dearest Mother, may the food that my body requires remind me of the nourishment that my soul will forever crave, the body and blood of your Son, and my Lord, Jesus Christ." St. Louis de Montfort likens Mary to a tube or conduit. He says that this devotion is the "surest, safest means" to our Lord. [b]John Paul II, who was a fan of True Devotion and called it a major turning point in his life[/b], took the motto "Totus Tuus" -- "Totally Yours", in deference to our Lady. He is noted as saying (paraphrased), "God gave Christ to the world through Mary, and now God wishes to give the world to Christ -- through Mary." Devotion to Mary is the surest devotion to Christ; the testimony of the Saints, and those on this board who have completed the Consecration is powerful witness indeed. We seek teachers and role models in our never-ending quest to love Christ, and who could have loved Christ more than His own mother? [quote]As it is... I am not yet convinced that consecration is for everyone.[/quote] I may agree with you on [b]consecration[/b] (against the advice of the Saints, however, who say that no soul should age beyond 19 years without consecrating itself to our Lady), but I do believe that [b]devotion[/b] of some form to the Blessed Mother is indeed for everyone. It is all over the Saints, the Tradition of the Church, and the rash of recent Marian Apparitions. Pax Christi, Kris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeresaBenedicta Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 [quote name='mommas_boy' post='1614241' date='Jul 31 2008, 04:41 PM']I may agree with you on [b]consecration[/b] (against the advice of the Saints, however, who say that no soul should age beyond 19 years without consecrating itself to our Lady), but I do believe that [b]devotion[/b] of some form to the Blessed Mother is indeed for everyone. It is all over the Saints, the Tradition of the Church, and the rash of recent Marian Apparitions.[/quote] Absolutely. There [b]must[/b] be some degree of devotion to the Blessed Mother. For myself, I see that devotion to be more passive... A trust and a humble submissiveness to her. More of an inward disposition than an outward devotion such as the consecration or a scapular or daily rosary, etc. I do participate in these types of outward expressions of devotion, but they are not my primary means of devotion to the Blessed Mother. I pray the rosary here and there. I consecrate certain things or situations in my life to the Blessed Mother. And in my hardest times, I always find myself at her feet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 [quote name='HisChildForever' post='1614108' date='Jul 31 2008, 11:21 AM']In the Bible, doesn't St. Paul often make remarks about being a slave to Christ? Such devout servitude, I believe, should only be given to Jesus Christ. While Mary is a remarkable woman and worthy of our honor, she is just that, a woman. She's not divine.[/quote] +J.M.J.+ i have to quote from Archbishop Fulton Sheen in my response: (here he speaks of Our Lady visiting Elizabeth) [quote]Notice how much Our Blessed Lady is made the link of bringing Christ to humanity. First of all, it was through her as a Gate of Heaven that he walked into this earth. It was in her as a Mirror of Justice that he first saw with human eyes the reflection of the world he had made. It is in her as a kind of living ciborium that he is carried to the first Communion rail of her cousin's home, where an unborn babe salutes him as the Host who is to be the Guest of the World. It is through her intercession at Cana that he brings his Divine Power to supply a human need. And it is finally at the cross that she who gave Christ to the world, now receives him back again in us who have the high and undeserved honor to call ourselves Christian. Because of this intimacy I wonder if it is not true that as the world loses veneration for Christ's mother, it loses also its adoration of Christ. Is it not true in earthly relationships that, as a so-called friend ignores your mother when he comes to your home, sooner or later he will ignore you? Conversely, as the world begins knocking at Mary's door, it will find that Our Lord himself will answer. If you have never before prayed to Mary, do so now. Can you not see that if Christ himself willed to be physically formed in her for nine months and then be spiritually formed by her for thirty years, it is to her that we must go to learn how to have Christ formed in us? Only she who raised Christ can raise a Christian.[/quote] i this book! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 [quote]fyi i would be careful when saying that phrase, as it is a very popular protestant/anti-Catholic/anti-Mary sentiment.[/quote] I believe in praying through Mary and the Saints for intercession, I think that the Rosary is beautiful, and I pray the Hail Mary a lot. But in my opinion, the wording - I'm saying the [b]wording[/b], not the [b]intention[/b] - of this consecration strikes me as very...I don't want to say "wrong" but perhaps "off" is the word I am searching for. It makes Mary come across as divine, and as wonderful and as extraordinary a woman she is, she's not divine. [quote]74. What I say in an absolute sense of our Lord, I say with a relative sense of our Blessed Lady. Jesus, in choosing her as his inseparable associate in his life, death, glory and power in heaven and on earth, has given her by grace in his kingdom all the same rights and priveleges that he possesses by nature. 'All that belongs to God by nature belongs to Mary by grace,' say the saints, and, according to them, [b]just as Jesus and Mary have the same will and power, they have also the same subjects, servants and slaves.[/b][/quote] I'm not comfortable at all with what I just bolded in this paragraph. Isn't this making Mary equal to Jesus, especially by saying that she has the same "power" as Him? This "power" being - well, divine and great! [quote]75. Following therefore the teaching of the saints and of many great men we can call ourselves, and become, the loving slaves of our Blessed Lady in order to become more perfect slaves of Jesus.[b] Mary is the means our Lord chose to come to us and she is also themeans we should choose to go to him...[/b][/quote] Again, the part I bolded makes me uneasy. Is this implying that we can only truly know Jesus Christ, our Savior, our God, through His human mother? [b]Please note that I am not trying to downplay her or her role[/b], but I think it's bizarre to say that you can only truly know God by first knowing Mary, a human being. It's...backwards. I'm not trying to start a debate, and I apologize if I'm coming across that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissyP89 Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 HisChildForever, I'm exactly where you are right now regarding our Lady. (And you're from Jersey, too! Nice.) Pray for me? I will for you. Maybe Mary will smack us both upside the head about this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeresaBenedicta Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 [quote name='HisChildForever' post='1614431' date='Jul 31 2008, 08:23 PM']I believe in praying through Mary and the Saints for intercession, I think that the Rosary is beautiful, and I pray the Hail Mary a lot. But in my opinion, the wording - I'm saying the [b]wording[/b], not the [b]intention[/b] - of this consecration strikes me as very...I don't want to say "wrong" but perhaps "off" is the word I am searching for. It makes Mary come across as divine, and as wonderful and as extraordinary a woman she is, she's not divine.[/quote] I hear you. It still sounds... strange... to me as well. Then again, coming from the perspective of a convert, a lot of things started as strange to me. Even that Jesus, a man, could be God. Or that a piece of bread could be His Body and Blood. At first those truths evoked the same uncomfortable feelings from me. Mostly because they were new and well, strange. [quote]I'm not comfortable at all with what I just bolded in this paragraph. Isn't this making Mary equal to Jesus, especially by saying that she has the same "power" as Him? This "power" being - well, divine and great![/quote] But Mary, as Queen of Heaven and Earth, as Coredemtrix, and as Mediatrix DOES have the same power as Jesus Christ. Not on her own merit, though. What Jesus has by nature is Mary's by Divine Grace. At any moment God could revoke her power. But He doesn't. [quote]Again, the part I bolded makes me uneasy. Is this implying that we can only truly know Jesus Christ, our Savior, our God, through His human mother? [b]Please note that I am not trying to downplay her or her role[/b], but I think it's bizarre to say that you can only truly know God by first knowing Mary, a human being. It's...backwards. I'm not trying to start a debate, and I apologize if I'm coming across that way.[/quote] Don't worry, you don't sound as though you're trying to start a debate. These are good questions worth asking. I do not believe that it is exclusive that you must know Mary to know Christ. On the contrary. However, by going to Mary, you can be assured that you are being led to Christ. I think the saying is, "The [b]surest[/b] way to Christ is through the Blessed Mother." The only way? No. The 'surest' way. Mary plays such an extraordinary role in our salvation, more than we typically realize. But as I mentioned before, I don't think this type of consecration is for everyone. Marian devotion is, but necessarily consecration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeresaBenedicta Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 [quote name='MissyP89' post='1614435' date='Jul 31 2008, 08:30 PM']HisChildForever, I'm exactly where you are right now regarding our Lady. (And you're from Jersey, too! Nice.) Pray for me? I will for you. Maybe Mary will smack us both upside the head about this. [/quote] And I was at where both of you are just a few months ago. In fact, I'm still kind of there, in a way. Now I understand it... but it still makes me uncomfortable. Which is why I still haven't (and may never) consecrate. But let me tell you this... I do not, for one minute, regret learning more about the Blessed Mother and exploring her role in salvation. It has been a blessing to me in so many ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 [quote name='MissyP89' post='1614435' date='Jul 31 2008, 07:30 PM']HisChildForever, I'm exactly where you are right now regarding our Lady. (And you're from Jersey, too! Nice.) Pray for me? I will for you. Maybe Mary will smack us both upside the head about this. [/quote] I think I'm just more concerned with how Marian devotion is expressed - which, many times, strikes me as worship - than Marian devotion itself. I believe that it's this "shakey" wording that Protestants jump on. When I need immediate help with something, or if I need to say a quick prayer for someone else, the first thing I think of is "Jesus, help me/him/her!" not "Mary, help me/him/her!" which is approved of by the Church, but why? I understand that it is taught that Mary would seek Jesus, but why do we need Mary to seek Jesus, when we can ask Him ourselves? Especially in dire situations. Would Jesus be more "willing" to help us if we ask Him "through" Mary? That whole concept just doesn't make any sense to me. I never did like calling her "our Lady" since (and I'm probably going to get attacked for this one), Wiccans/Pagans refer to their female deity as "our Lady." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 [quote]But Mary, as Queen of Heaven and Earth, as Coredemtrix, and as Mediatrix DOES have the same power as Jesus Christ. Not on her own merit, though. What Jesus has by nature is Mary's by Divine Grace. At any moment God could revoke her power. But He doesn't.[/quote] What baffles me is...where does this come from? What writings? (I know that if I say that Mary is barely mentioned in the Gospels I'll get the 'ole "Oh well we have Tradition" from someone...) Did Jesus come to a theologian and say "Hey, you have to write down some things about my Mom" ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeresaBenedicta Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 [quote name='HisChildForever' post='1614439' date='Jul 31 2008, 08:43 PM']I think I'm just more concerned with how Marian devotion is expressed - which, many times, strikes me as worship - than Marian devotion itself. I believe that it's this "shakey" wording that Protestants jump on.[/quote] It certainly can be dangerous at times, especially those who are not seeking Christ in and through these devotions. And a lot of the times, it's just not explained well. That's the biggest reason, I think, for the strife between Protestants and Catholics about Mary. Misunderstanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeresaBenedicta Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 [quote name='HisChildForever' post='1614442' date='Jul 31 2008, 08:47 PM']What baffles me is...where does this come from? What writings? (I know that if I say that Mary is barely mentioned in the Gospels I'll get the 'ole "Oh well we have Tradition" from someone...) Did Jesus come to a theologian and say "Hey, you have to write down some things about my Mom" ?[/quote] I'm going to let someone with more study (maybe lil red?) answer this, as I'm beginning to be pulled out of the realm that I have knowledge of. I believe the early Church Fathers have much to say about the Blessed Mother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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