Bush Approves Execution Of Army Private

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1612157' date='Jul 29 2008, 07:06 PM']If the state is given the power of the sword by the immutable truth of divine revelation, then why did we have war crimes trials after WWII. If Germany had the right given to them by God to do as they wish, then we had no right to go to war against them, let alone prosecute their leaders after the fact.[/quote]
It is simply an application of the same principle at the international level, where the individuals in charge of the State in question (i.e., Nazi Germany) abused its power. I have nowhere said that the State cannot be misused by those in positions of authority.

That said, I do not see any abuse of authority in the case highlighted in the present thread. President Bush has simply refused to grant clemency.

Edited July 30, 2008 by Apotheoun

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1612157' date='Jul 29 2008, 08:06 PM']If the state is given the power of the sword by the immutable truth of divine revelation, then why did we have war crimes trials after WWII. If Germany had the right given to them by God to do as they wish, then we had no right to go to war against them, let alone prosecute their leaders after the fact.[/quote]

Nazi Leaders who unjustly murdered their people where not prosecuted by the Allied Armies. The state only has a right to use the death penalty in just causes like that of a murder of serial rapist. Not because someone is of a certain race of faith. Also I am pretty sure the Conquering State has the right to see justice brought against an unjustified conquered army.

[Didymus]

thank you KoC, I will read through and respond asap

Apo, Romans 13:1-4 does not address those rulers who may actually be a terror to good conduct rather than bad. e.g. does this passage defend unjust rulers?

we need an infallible authority to interpret scripture.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Didymus' post='1612179' date='Jul 29 2008, 07:15 PM']thank you KoC, I will read through and respond asap

Apo, Romans 13:1-4 does not address those rulers who may actually be a terror to good conduct rather than bad. e.g. does this passage defend unjust rulers?

we need an infallible authority to interpret scripture.[/quote]
The Magisterium is not above scripture, but is at its service. The Pope himself cannot alter the immutable natural moral law or divine revelation, and so there is no power on earth that can declare the use of the death penalty illicit.

The abuse of a power, does not invalidate the power in question. If a ruler misuses the power of the sword, he himself is subject to judgment, can be overthrown, and once arrested, he can be executed if during his rule he committed a capital offense (or many such offenses).

Edited July 30, 2008 by Apotheoun

[Didymus]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1612170' date='Jul 29 2008, 09:12 PM']That said, I do not see any abuse of authority in the case highlighted in the present thread. President Bush has simply refused to grant clemency.[/quote]

so you see it, but the fact that we don't makes us wrong??

he did not simply refuse to grant clemency. This was discussed earlier as well. The Commander in Chief is the one who gives the order for executions within the military.

[Didymus]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1612182' date='Jul 29 2008, 09:17 PM']The Magisterium is not above scripture, but is at its service. The Pope himself cannot alter the immutable natural moral law or divine revelation, and so there is no power on earth that can declare the use of the death penalty illicit.[/quote]

but I explained how this passage can be used to defend 'evil' men in office. I NEVER claimed the Magisterium must change or alter Scripture. I merely stated that in this case we are in dire need of infallible interpretation of Sacred Scripture.

Edited July 30, 2008 by Didymus

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Didymus' post='1612183' date='Jul 29 2008, 07:17 PM']so you see it, but the fact that we don't makes us wrong??

he did not simply refuse to grant clemency. This was discussed earlier as well. The Commander in Chief is the one who gives the order for executions within the military.[/quote]
We simply are not going to agree, because the president did what he had to do based upon the circumstances of the case. The man in question admitted his guilt, and if he accepts his punishment willingly, he will expiate his sins.

Edited July 30, 2008 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Didymus' post='1612186' date='Jul 29 2008, 07:19 PM']but I explained how this passage can be used to defend 'evil' men in office. I NEVER claimed the Magisterium must change or alter Scripture. I merely stated that in this case we are in dire need of infallible interpretation of Sacred Scripture.[/quote]
Nowhere does the passage allow evil men to commit evil, that is simply your poor reading of the text. I have never seen anything written by the Fathers that misreads the text as you have.

[Didymus]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1612192' date='Jul 29 2008, 09:23 PM']We simply are not going to agree, because the president did what he had to do based upon the circumstances of the case. The man in question admitted his guilt, and if he accepts his punishment willingly, he will expiate his sins.[/quote]

you are making excuses

you have given me no way to infallibly interpret those passages in Sacred Scripture to mean what you say they mean.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Didymus' post='1612197' date='Jul 29 2008, 07:25 PM']you are making excuses

you have given me no way to infallibly interpret those passages in Sacred Scripture to mean what you say they mean.[/quote]


You cannot do anything infallibly, nor do you need to since the text has never been disputed in the history of the Church.

Edited July 30, 2008 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

The man in the present case admitted his guilt. So, how is president Bush acting in an immoral way?

[Didymus]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1612196' date='Jul 29 2008, 09:24 PM']Nowhere does the passage allow evil men to commit evil, that is simply your poor reading of the text.[/quote]

the passage states that those in office were put in office by God and thus we are to follow the commands of that official. That is my interpretation.

But how am I to judge when my government official is using their power unjustly? Unless I am mistaken, the passage doesn't say.

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1612196' date='Jul 29 2008, 09:24 PM']I have never seen anything written by the Fathers that misreads the text as you have.[/quote]

Please please please dear God show me these writings you speak of. In the name of all that is good and holy please cite something other than Sacred Scripture.

[Apotheoun]

From the Roman Catechism:

[size=3][quote]Another kind of lawful slaying belongs to the civil authorities, to whom is entrusted power of life and death, by the legal and judicious exercise of which they punish the guilty and protect the innocent. The just use of this power, far from involving the crime of murder, is an act of paramount obedience to this Commandment which prohibits murder. The end of the Commandment� is the preservation and security of human life. Now the punishments inflicted by the civil authority, which is the legitimate avenger of crime, naturally tend to this end, since they give security to life by repressing outrage and violence. Hence these words of David: In the morning I put to death all the wicked of the land, that I might cut off all the workers of iniquity from the city of the Lord.[/quote][/size]

[Didymus]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1612200' date='Jul 29 2008, 09:26 PM']

You cannot do anything infallibly, nor do you need to since the text has never been disputed in the history of the Church.[/quote]

I am not in dispute with you over what the passage says. I am in dispute with you over what it does not say.