kafka Posted July 29, 2008 Share Posted July 29, 2008 [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1612007' date='Jul 29 2008, 06:52 PM']President Bush is well within his God given rights as leader of this nation to carry out the death penalty on a person guilty of crimes as this many as guilty. His approval is not illegal nor is it immoral.[/quote] I dont understand what you mean by that. His act is either moral or immoral. Even though it is his legal right to administer the death penalty in this situation, it could still theoretically be immoral if it is done with bad intentions and or the bad consequences outweigh the good consequences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatherineM Posted July 29, 2008 Share Posted July 29, 2008 [quote name='kafka' date='Jul 29 2008, 05:40 PM' post='1612000'] JPII was not opposed to the death penalty. He suggested that the world should move towards an ideal society in which there would be no killing. But this idea is of the decision of the temporal prudential order and is fallible. The Church has infallibly and non-infalliby taught that the death penalty can be used by proper lawful authority. The death penalty is not intrinsically evil, therefore when applying the basic principles of Catholic ethics (which I will do below) it defaults the the third font of circumstance/or consequences. I'm really not trying to be argumentative, I am really trying to understand. If JPII wasn't against the death penalty, then why did he request repeatedly that governors not sign death warrants and instead commute sentences? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Didymus Posted July 29, 2008 Share Posted July 29, 2008 [quote name='kafka' post='1612006' date='Jul 29 2008, 06:51 PM']please read my post above.[/quote] added to the circumstances ought to be the U.S.' ability to retain an individual for the duration of their life and keep them separated from society for the protection of the society. This is a huge circumstance that many seem to overlook. If it were taken into account, a life can be spared. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Didymus Posted July 29, 2008 Share Posted July 29, 2008 (edited) [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1612007' date='Jul 29 2008, 06:52 PM']President Bush is well within his God given rights as leader of this nation to carry out the death penalty on a person guilty of crimes as this many as guilty. His approval is not illegal nor is it immoral.[/quote] are you saying this, or did the Vicar of Christ come out and speak infallibly on this particular instance himself? Edited July 29, 2008 by Didymus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deb Posted July 29, 2008 Share Posted July 29, 2008 Did anyone listen to the gospel reading we just had about the wheat and the weeds? God is patient. He does not want any of his children to lose their souls and if there is any chance of redemption by one who commits evil he is willing to give them time. His time is not the same as ours. I can only think of myself. If my life had ended anytime between the ages of 17 and 51, I would probably be burning in hell. The Lord gave me all the time in the world to hear his voice. I think all children of God deserve the same. In this case, this man is no threat and so killing him twenty years after the crime, one he pled guilty to, is no more than a case of vengence by man. Murder just because you can. Then again, Bush never met a criminal he wasn't willing to let die, some he has even mocked first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kafka Posted July 29, 2008 Share Posted July 29, 2008 (edited) [i]I'm really not trying to be argumentative, I am really trying to understand. If JPII wasn't against the death penalty, then why did he request repeatedly that governors not sign death warrants and instead commute sentences?[/i] I didnt think you were, but there is the danger that people misunderstand his actions to think that the death penalty is the same as the negative precept (thou shalt not kill) and hence falling into error. Those requests were of the prudential order, are fallible and could very well have been wrong. I really dont know why he did it, I would have to study each particular case. Edited July 29, 2008 by kafka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted July 29, 2008 Share Posted July 29, 2008 [quote name='kafka' post='1612010' date='Jul 29 2008, 05:57 PM']I dont understand what you mean by that. His act is either moral or immoral. Even though it is his legal right to administer the death penalty in this situation, it could still theoretically be immoral if it is done with bad intentions and or the bad consequences outweigh the good consequences.[/quote] If one accepts the premise that the solider is guilty of the crimes which he as been charged and found guilty of, then the President as a representative of the United States is well within his rights to carry out justice called for by the military court. Also, it could be considered a good and moral decision if done in a just manner it would be backed by both the law of the Untied States and of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted July 29, 2008 Share Posted July 29, 2008 (edited) [quote name='Didymus' post='1612015' date='Jul 29 2008, 06:08 PM']are you saying this, or did the Vicar of Christ come out and speak infallibly on this particular instance himself?[/quote] The Vicar of Christ has spoken through the Saints and His Church, who teach that governments have a right to implement the use of the death penalty for unjust crimes against society, as President and a leader of this nation that duty can fall on the man that sits in that office. Edited July 29, 2008 by KnightofChrist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deb Posted July 29, 2008 Share Posted July 29, 2008 [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1612020' date='Jul 29 2008, 07:12 PM']If one accepts the premise that the solider is guilty of the crimes which he as been charged and found guilty of, then the President as a representative of the United States is well within his rights to carry out justice called for by the military court. Also, it could be considered a good and moral decision if done in a just manner it would be backed by both the law of the Untied States and of God.[/quote] Do you really think that God backs man killing each other under the guise of punishment? Just because something is legal, doesn't mean it should continue. Just like abortion. Protection of life is from conception to natural death. Capital punishment is just another piece of a culture of death. [url="http://www.usccb.org/sdwp/national/penaltyofdeath.pdf"]http://www.usccb.org/sdwp/national/penaltyofdeath.pdf[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kafka Posted July 29, 2008 Share Posted July 29, 2008 [quote name='Didymus' post='1612013' date='Jul 29 2008, 07:06 PM']added to the circumstances ought to be the U.S.' ability to retain an individual for the duration of their life and keep them separated from society for the protection of the society. This is a huge circumstance that many seem to overlook. If it were taken into account, a life can be spared.[/quote] maybe, of course mercy is greater than justice, but then again the leader of a nation has a grave destiny to make judgments that may benefit his people. There isnt a whole lot of fear of God in our secular society, so maybe that could be another good consequence. [quote name='Didymus' post='1612015' date='Jul 29 2008, 07:08 PM']are you saying this, or did the Vicar of Christ come out and speak infallibly on this particular instance himself?[/quote] There are three ways in which the Sacred Magisterium may teach infallibly: 1. Papal Infallibility 2. Solemn Definitions of Ecumenical Councils 3. Universal Magisterium In my opinion that the death penalty is not instrinsically evil falls under the the infallible Teaching of the Universal Magisterium (I will expound if you wish) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kafka Posted July 29, 2008 Share Posted July 29, 2008 [quote name='Deb' post='1612027' date='Jul 29 2008, 07:17 PM']Do you really think that God backs man killing each other under the guise of punishment? Just because something is legal, doesn't mean it should continue. Just like abortion. Protection of life is from conception to natural death. Capital punishment is just another piece of a culture of death. [url="http://www.usccb.org/sdwp/national/penaltyofdeath.pdf"]http://www.usccb.org/sdwp/national/penaltyofdeath.pdf[/url][/quote] But Deb, God ordered the Israelites to apply the death penalty. God cannot require anyone to do anything which is intrinsically evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted July 29, 2008 Share Posted July 29, 2008 [quote name='Deb' post='1612027' date='Jul 29 2008, 06:17 PM']Do you really think that God backs man killing each other under the guise of punishment? Just because something is legal, doesn't mean it should continue. Just like abortion. Protection of life is from conception to natural death. Capital punishment is just another piece of a culture of death. [url="http://www.usccb.org/sdwp/national/penaltyofdeath.pdf"]http://www.usccb.org/sdwp/national/penaltyofdeath.pdf[/url][/quote] God has given the nations the Right to carry out the death penalty on major unjust criminals. [u]The Church and Her Saints have taught this since Her birth[/u]. It is a modern novelty that the death penalty is wrong or immoral, or that modern nations like that of the US do not also have a right to carry out the death penalty. In the eyes of God the murderer loses the 'protection' of his own life because by murdering another living being he forfeits his right to life. Abortion is not the same abortions [u]murders[/u] the innocent, the death penalty when done justly does not [u]kill[/u] the innocent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatherineM Posted July 29, 2008 Share Posted July 29, 2008 [quote name='kafka' post='1612032' date='Jul 29 2008, 06:22 PM']But Deb, God ordered the Israelites to apply the death penalty. God cannot require anyone to do anything which is intrinsically evil.[/quote] Remind me, how exactly did God deal with the first murderer Cain? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kafka Posted July 29, 2008 Share Posted July 29, 2008 [quote name='CatherineM' post='1612042' date='Jul 29 2008, 07:38 PM']Remind me, how exactly did God deal with the first murderer Cain?[/quote] are you for real? First off Cain wasnt an Israelite. Second off you know well there are examples in the O.T. and specific commands of God to put to death those who committed certains acts against some negative precepts such as thou shalt not committ adultery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted July 29, 2008 Share Posted July 29, 2008 (edited) Instead of waiting to page 20 of this thread to say this I'll say it now, since it will be pretty much in the end the logical and correct conclusion. A catholic can be personally against the death penalty but a catholic can not deny the right of the use of the death penalty on grave immoral unjust criminals by any State/Government, including modern Nations like the US or Europe. A catholic also can not teach that the Death Penalty is immoral in and of itself. Edited July 29, 2008 by KnightofChrist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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