Bush Approves Execution Of Army Private

[IcePrincessKRS]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1611878' date='Jul 29 2008, 06:12 PM']I would nuance this by saying that a Catholic can oppose the application of the death penalty in particular cases, but that it is not possible for a Catholic to oppose the death penalty [i]per se[/i], because the use of the death penalty by the proper civil authorities in capital cases is part of the natural moral law and divine revelation.[/quote]

Well said.

[XIX]

[quote name='IcePrincessKRS' post='1611808' date='Jul 29 2008, 05:36 PM']The punishment IS just.[/quote]
Completely irrelevant. It is not our job as Christians to give others what they justly deserve. Because, as sinners, we all deserve to die a horrible death anyways. That's just the way it is. We live in a fallen world.

Not trying to sound harsh or anything, just pointing out that "just punishment" is not a reason for accepting the death penalty.

[Apotheoun]

Justice in human relations is most certainly a Christian duty, and this includes retributive justice.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1611878' date='Jul 29 2008, 04:12 PM']I would nuance this by saying that a Catholic can oppose the application of the death penalty in particular cases, but that it is not possible for a Catholic to oppose the death penalty [i]per se[/i], because the use of the death penalty by the proper civil authorities in capital cases is part of the natural moral law and divine revelation.[/quote]
I agree with this, as well.

[StColette]

Why do I see this being moved to the debate table lol?

[XIX]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1611942' date='Jul 29 2008, 06:34 PM']Justice in human relations is most certainly a Christian duty, and this includes retributive justice.[/quote]
Well, doesn't that refer to justice in terms of treating people equitably? I don't think "just punishment" is the same thing.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='XIX' post='1611954' date='Jul 29 2008, 03:42 PM']Well, doesn't that refer to justice in terms of treating people equitably? I don't think "just punishment" is the same thing.[/quote]
The virtue of justice, which one must practice if he is to achieve salvation, includes retributive justice.

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='StColette' post='1611953' date='Jul 29 2008, 05:42 PM']Why do I see this being moved to the debate table lol?[/quote]

[Brother Adam]

I am more conflicted about the death penalty today than I used to be. My change of heart came after hearing several testimonies of death penalty conversions to Catholicism. Those who had been on death row for years, and were ministered to by Catholics in prison and who converted. If their execution was carried out quickly, they would probably end up in hell. Combining that with Catholic theology and Balthasar's philosophy I am straddling the fence on many executions. If it were up to me I would probably stay the execution of anyone who is clearly no longer violent in prison and keep them there for life without the possibility of parole. As it is the civil (or in this case military) authority has spoken and has rendered a just punishment for his crimes and find no fault in carrying out that punishment.

[CatherineM]

All it took for me was attending an execution.

[CatherineM]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1611878' date='Jul 29 2008, 04:12 PM']I would nuance this by saying that a Catholic can oppose the application of the death penalty in particular cases, but that it is not possible for a Catholic to oppose the death penalty [i]per se[/i], because the use of the death penalty by the proper civil authorities in capital cases is part of the natural moral law and divine revelation.[/quote]

I guess I am mistaken about Pope John Paul's opposition to the death penalty. Was he only against it in certain cases rather than being opposed to it for every US execution? I guess I got the wrong impression because he sent letters to governors for every execution.

[kafka]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1611826' date='Jul 29 2008, 04:45 PM']Another topic to go around and around with. The CCC allows for capital punishment in certain situations. Reasonable people can disagree as to whether this case, or any case of capital punishment in the US, meets the CCC guidelines. I would hope that eventhough the CCC allows for capital punishment, that we could all recognize that being opposed to the death penalty is also allowed for Catholics since John Paul II was opposed to capital punishment.

Bottom line is that the authority and responsibility of this final decision lay in the President's hands, and he has exercised that authority as his conscience has allowed. All we can do is pray for this condemned man's soul, and for his victims, their families, and for his family as well.[/quote]
JPII was not opposed to the death penalty. He suggested that the world should move towards an ideal society in which there would be no killing. But this idea is of the decision of the temporal prudential order and is fallible. The Church has infallibly and non-infalliby taught that the death penalty can be used by proper lawful authority. The death penalty is not intrinsically evil, therefore when applying the basic principles of Catholic ethics (which I will do below) it defaults the the third font of circumstance/or consequences.

[quote name='aalpha1989' post='1611840' date='Jul 29 2008, 04:52 PM']I don't understand why you would kill him when there is obviously another choice available. I am very very sorry to say (no sarcasm, I really am sorry), but that is not a pro-life position. Capital punishment IS a life issue. It should be a last resort for the protection of life. Killing this guy cannot bring his victims back.

Yes, the Church allows for use of the death penalty when [i]necessary[/i]. In this case it is not necessary, it is just to make the victims and their families feel like some kind of revenge has been taken. Capital punishment should not be for vengence (because that's what it is in most cases, including this one).[/quote]
There could be multiple just and good consequences of the death penalty beyond the peace of the families. It is not a matter of when the death penalty is necessary it is a matter of whether or not the good consequences outweigh the bad consequences as I will demonstrate below:

Lets apply the principles of basic Catholic ethics, namely the three fonts of moralty to this decision of the President. All three fonts must be moral in order for the overall act to be moral:

[b]First Font:[/b] intent (also called choice, or the exercise of free will, or purpose)

~Based on the little I read in the articles our President had the good intent and purpose of enacting justice by administering the death penalty upon this person, since he was a serial murderer and rapist, and in the military(the president's responsibility).

[b]Second Font:[/b] the act itself (not the overall act, encompassing all three fonts, but the act narrowly considered, apart from intention and knowledge, apart from circumstance and consequence.

~use of the death penalty by a lawful government is not intrinsically evil therefore the overall morality of the act defaults to the third font (circumstance). (side-note: I think not using the death penalty could theoritically be a sin of omission, since it might be morally necessary out of love of God and neighbor.)

[b]Third Font: [/b] 3. circumstances (i.e. everything else that affects the morality of the overall act, other than the first two fonts). For this font to be good, the good consequences must outweigh the bad consequences.

~this is where we enter the realm of the prudential order which is fallible. The President must decide whether or not the good consequences of the death penalty outweigh the bad circumstances in this particular case. Within this font Catholics may debate whether or not our President acted morally in this situation, but they may not disagree with Church teaching that the death penalty is not intrinsically evil.

Now I am not well versed in law but here are some possible consequences:

Good:
1. Justice and good are upheld in a public way
2. The peace of the victim's families
3. An example and warning to other serial murderers and rapists
4. An example to other members of the military who should be given stricter judgment since they are called to defend the country.
5. The possible repentance of the rapist/murderer because of looming death.
6. A positive example of justice to other nations

Bad:
1. The shortening of a man's life.
2. The shortening of time of his possible repentence
3. The loss of his possible good use to society by performing in house services to the government.

There may be other consequences that surface in time,

In conclusion based on the little I know, it seems to me that the President acted with moral certitude that the good consequences outweighed the bad, therefore making the overall act moral.

Edited July 29, 2008 by kafka

[Didymus]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1611878' date='Jul 29 2008, 05:12 PM']I would nuance this by saying that a Catholic can oppose the application of the death penalty in particular cases, but that it is not possible for a Catholic to oppose the death penalty [i]per se[/i], because the use of the death penalty by the proper civil authorities in capital cases is part of the natural moral law and divine revelation.[/quote]

but it's even more complicated than that.. I support the death penalty as a last resort within those communities that do not possess the means to control someone dangerous to society.

I am, however, opposed to any and all applications of the death penalty by the U.S., as it is never necessary to take a life here in order to cut one off from society for the rest of their life.

This action by President Bush is unfortunate, as he makes himself out to be one who is pro-life, and yet he turns out to be one who merely opposes injustices against lives deemed 'worthy' to defend, and not those guilty of crimes as well.

[kafka]

[quote name='Didymus' post='1612002' date='Jul 29 2008, 06:42 PM']I am, however, opposed to any and all applications of the death penalty by the U.S., as it is never necessary to take a life here in order to cut one off from society for the rest of their life.

This action by President Bush is unfortunate, as he makes himself out to be one who is pro-life, and yet he turns out to be one who merely opposes injustices against lives deemed 'worthy' to defend, and not those guilty of crimes as well.[/quote]
please read my post above.

[KnightofChrist]

President Bush is well within his God given rights as leader of this nation to carry out the death penalty on a person guilty of crimes as this many as guilty. His approval is not illegal nor is it immoral.

Edited July 29, 2008 by KnightofChrist