Laudate_Dominum Posted March 5, 2004 Share Posted March 5, 2004 [quote name='Iacobus' date='Mar 4 2004, 07:44 PM'] Doesn't the CCC say that salvation for those who didn't know Christ but strived to live a moral and just life can be saved. And about infants that we rely on the grace of a all merciful God? [/quote] Something else I like to point out (because you hardly ever hear about it) is the fact that there are "righteous pagans" in the Bible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the lumberjack Posted March 5, 2004 Share Posted March 5, 2004 infants and mentally handicapped people don't know the difference between good and evil, therefore, they can not discern anything...so yeah, I do believe that the saving grace of God is extended unto them...till the infants know the difference, anyways. as for the concept of baptism by desire, it is possible that it is totally unbiblical. as long as you live a good life you can be saved? or that you ARE saved? because in the Bible, clear as day, black and white it says, "There is NO ONE that is righteous, NOT EVEN ONE." "For there is none that does good. No, not one." "[b]ALL[/b] have sinned and FALL SHORT of the glory of God." how do you refute these verses? Jesus Christ is the ONLY road to salvation...GOOD people don't go to heaven...God's people go to heaven. and those verses talk NOTHING about living a virtuous life OUTSIDE OF GOD and CHRIST...they are directly tied to a repentant heart and a mouth that proclaimed Christ as Lord. "Don't you fear God, seeing that you are in the same sentence?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted March 5, 2004 Share Posted March 5, 2004 no need to "refute" scripture, no Catholic would ever disagree with scripture. one must be invincibly ignorant and TRY TO LIVE GOD'S WILL ACCORDING TO THE DICTATES OF THEIR CONSCIENCE. invincible ignorance means they aren't culpable for not knowing about Jesus ( _/ :bends knee:), WE ARE, cuz we didn't witness enough to Him through our words and deeds. where's bro adam's post, "I speak this to your shame"... He says it's our fault when someone does not know Christ, there is NO EXCUSE for someone to not know Christ. but by observing the created world, by the light of human reason which is God-given, and by the conscience which is also God-given, one can discern a certain natural law and live by it. one who rejects morality rejects this natural law and through their own culpability refuses to know Jesus Christ ( _/ :bends knee:). Only through Jesus ( _/ :bends knee:) are men saved. If they live as 'righteous pagans' because of their God-given human intellect and conscience, they are beckoned by Christ towards eternal life, and pass through His purifying fires which teach them all things they would have come to know on earth if His ppl had carried out their mission correctly. this is an EXTRA-ORDINARY means of salvation, the ORDINARY MEANS of salvation is through Christ's Church. all who are not united to Christ's Church are Prayed for and Hoped for by the Body of Christ, and they are all commended to God's mercy knowing that if they were invincibly ignorant and lived a good life according to the dictates of their God-given human conscience, God may save them through Christ Jesus ( _/ :bends knee) and His Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted March 5, 2004 Share Posted March 5, 2004 [quote name='the lumberjack' date='Mar 4 2004, 10:51 PM'] infants and mentally handicapped people don't know the difference between good and evil, therefore, they can not discern anything...so yeah, I do believe that the saving grace of God is extended unto them...till the infants know the difference, anyways. as for the concept of baptism by desire, it is possible that it is totally unbiblical. [/quote] There are things that support the concept of baptism by desire in the Scriptures, for example the guy crucified next to Christ who was not baptized yet was saved. Also it should be noted that the Church does not teach that simply living a good life means you are saved. The teaching is that who is saved is known to God and that God's mercy and power go beyond the normal means of salvation. We cannot fathom God's justice or His mercy so we cannot have a formula which tells us who is saved and who isn't in any absolute way. God can do all things, He can raise up children of Abraham from the stones. And what is dogma is that anyone who is saved is saved in and through Jesus Christ. So if someone who never heard the Gospel is saved it is still through Jesus Christ and they were given that grace at death to be united to Christ. We don't understand it all, but do not limit God's goodness and love and do not empty the cross of it's power. And the wise men who came and worshipped Christ when He was born were pagans who were men of good will and who were led to Christ despite the fact that they were not even Jews and were never baptized and never heard the Gospel preached. God desires the salvation of all as the Scripture tells us, so how do we know that God does not make salvation available to all at least at their moment of death. God has the power to do this to save His children whom He created out of love and desires to have in Heaven with Him. He is just afterall and will judge everyone according to their deeds and would you say that God would beaver dam a person because they never had the Gospel preached to them? I would not limit God's goodness in this way. Also the people in the old testament did not know Christ and they were saved (by Christ I might add). Since the law does not save (as Scripture tells us) we know they were not saved by works of the law or by the flesh (circumcision or being a Jew). I'm certainly not implying univeral salvation, but I also know that God's power transcends the normal means of salvation which is evident in Scripture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted March 5, 2004 Author Share Posted March 5, 2004 [quote name='the lumberjack' date='Mar 5 2004, 12:51 AM'] infants and mentally handicapped people don't know the difference between good and evil, therefore, they can not discern anything...so yeah, I do believe that the saving grace of God is extended unto them...till the infants know the difference, anyways. as for the concept of baptism by desire, it is possible that it is totally unbiblical. as long as you live a good life you can be saved? or that you ARE saved? because in the Bible, clear as day, black and white it says, "There is NO ONE that is righteous, NOT EVEN ONE." "For there is none that does good. No, not one." "[b]ALL[/b] have sinned and FALL SHORT of the glory of God." how do you refute these verses? Jesus Christ is the ONLY road to salvation...GOOD people don't go to heaven...God's people go to heaven. and those verses talk NOTHING about living a virtuous life OUTSIDE OF GOD and CHRIST...they are directly tied to a repentant heart and a mouth that proclaimed Christ as Lord. "Don't you fear God, seeing that you are in the same sentence?" [/quote] You fail to realize some basics of the bible.... It does not have everything in it, just because your interpretation doesn't match someone elses doesn't mean it's unbiblical. The bible does not claim to be the sole rule of faith... the bible actually says the Church is. 1 Tim 3:15. You need to learn where and by what authority did we get the bible. NOTHING the Catholic Church teaches is unbiblical, to say it is, is to show that you do not know the bible or what the Catholic Church teaches. God Bless, ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the lumberjack Posted March 5, 2004 Share Posted March 5, 2004 wow...I'll have to come back later...3 people against poor little me... but I still love you guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted March 5, 2004 Share Posted March 5, 2004 If I can help let me know, I'll back you up. But I would just be playing devil's advocate since I believe Catholicism is the real deal. I think it would be fun to be on the other side for a change, even if its just pretend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the lumberjack Posted March 6, 2004 Share Posted March 6, 2004 [b]I WILL TAKE YOU UP ON YOUR OFFER, MR OR MS DOMINUM![/b] i've emailed you with....stuff... thanks. I'll be back tomorrow to reply... its Friday nite, and I'm on the net... I am a nerd. oh well...gotta go and watch a movie now. PEACE! in Christ love. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted March 6, 2004 Share Posted March 6, 2004 [quote name='the lumberjack' date='Mar 5 2004, 11:32 PM'] [b]I WILL TAKE YOU UP ON YOUR OFFER, MR OR MS DOMINUM![/b] i've emailed you with....stuff... thanks. I'll be back tomorrow to reply... its Friday nite, and I'm on the net... I am a nerd. oh well...gotta go and watch a movie now. PEACE! in Christ love. [/quote] I didn't get your email for some reason.. PMing might be better.. anyway, I'll see what I can do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted March 6, 2004 Share Posted March 6, 2004 (edited) alright I got your email now lumberjack. Thanks. Edited March 6, 2004 by Laudate_Dominum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the lumberjack Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 Alyosius said: [quote]invincible ignorance means they aren't culpable for not knowing about Jesus [/quote] EVERYONE in the world DURING AND AFTER JESUS [b]is[/b] culpable for not knowing Him. its in His word...I'm sure you know the Scriptures. [quote]by the light of human reason which is God-given, and by the conscience which is also God-given, one can discern a certain natural law and live by it. one who rejects morality rejects this natural law and through their own culpability refuses to know Jesus Christ ( _/ :bends knee:). Only through Jesus ( _/ :bends knee:) are men saved. If they live as 'righteous pagans' because of their God-given human intellect and conscience, they are beckoned by Christ towards eternal life, and pass through His purifying fires which teach them all things they would have come to know on earth if His ppl had carried out their mission correctly.[/quote] one can discern all one wants to...without RECEIVING Christ into your life as your Lord and Saviour, desire to do good WITHOUT Christ means nothing. dust and ashes, a vanity of vanities, a dog chasing its tail. The New Testament utters this repeatedly throughout its duration. [quote]this is an EXTRA-ORDINARY means of salvation, the ORDINARY MEANS of salvation is through Christ's Church. all who are not united to Christ's Church are Prayed for and Hoped for by the Body of Christ, and they are all commended to God's mercy knowing that if they were invincibly ignorant and lived a good life according to the dictates of their God-given human conscience, God may save them through Christ Jesus ( _/ :bends knee) and His Church.[/quote] Through out the Bible, God has shown His greatness. His power, His glory, His love, His wrath, His anger, His mercy, His justice. For anyone to ignore those things and live their life as a "good person" is totally contradictary to what God Himself says. And as nice as it would be, good people don't go to heaven. God's people go to heaven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 EVERYONE in the world DURING AND AFTER JESUS is culpable for not knowing Him So a little child in Tibet is culpable? Hardly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mulls Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 that's what the great commission is for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted March 9, 2004 Share Posted March 9, 2004 Yes but you can't hold people to something they have never heard of before their death. God is a God of Justice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted March 9, 2004 Share Posted March 9, 2004 As usual we have the problem of authority here. Protestants themselves have never agreed on this stuff. The protestants out there hold their view (whatever it may be) based on their private interpretation or the particular theological tradition they align themselves with, we hold our view because of the authority of Jesus Christ which has been delegated to His Church for the purpose of teaching and interpreting with true authority. I do not think this issue could be definitively resolved without the authority discussion as well as the nature and structure of the Church and of Divine Revelation discussions. For this reason I consider this debate to be something of a dead end street. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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