the lumberjack Posted March 4, 2004 Share Posted March 4, 2004 [quote name='Dave' date='Mar 4 2004, 04:04 PM'] I'm not talking about evolution. Now answer the question! Who's to say they couldn't have started out faithful but ended up unfaithful? [/quote] ok...1st, switch to decaf, 2nd, They could have, goats to sheep and all...but what does that have to do with baptism and salvation? just wondering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted March 4, 2004 Share Posted March 4, 2004 I don't know if this was already discussed, but baptism replaces circumsion. Even protestants understand this for the most part. So, if circumsion was required for entrance into the old covenant, doesn't it make sense that baptism is required for entrance into the new? Can one be saved outside of the new covenant? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted March 4, 2004 Share Posted March 4, 2004 [quote name='the lumberjack' date='Mar 4 2004, 03:51 PM'] yes He did Dave, so who's to say that some of those goats WEREN'T/aren't/won't be baptized??? the sheep are God's sheep, the TRUE believers and followers...the goats are the people that pass themselves off as sheep, the "religious" people...the selfrighteous pharisees and saducees of our day. wouldn't you say? so go ahead and pull the car around! [/quote] [quote]2nd, They could have, goats to sheep and all...but what does that have to do with baptism and salvation?[/quote] Well, you said the sheep are the true believers, while the goat were not. I get the impression you're implying that that true believers will always be true believers; whereas false believers were ALWAYS false. Wrong. Lots of non-believers were true believers at one point. But that's rather irrelevant, since I said earlier that the goats refer to Jesus as "Lord." They had faith, but they didn't act on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted March 4, 2004 Share Posted March 4, 2004 [quote name='Brother Adam' date='Mar 4 2004, 05:23 PM'] I don't know if this was already discussed, but baptism replaces circumsion. Even protestants understand this for the most part. So, if circumsion was required for entrance into the old covenant, doesn't it make sense that baptism is required for entrance into the new? [/quote] Yes, you're exactly right. [quote]Can one be saved outside of the new covenant?[/quote] No. However, those who, through their own fault, are ignorant of the Good News yet who strive to live their lives following God's laws (even if they're unaware of God), are also participants in the New Covenant, even if only by desire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted March 4, 2004 Share Posted March 4, 2004 Doesn't Romans 1:20 say that there is no excuse? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the lumberjack Posted March 4, 2004 Share Posted March 4, 2004 [quote name='Dave' date='Mar 4 2004, 04:47 PM'] No. However, those who, through their own fault, are ignorant of the Good News yet who strive to live their lives following God's laws (even if they're unaware of God), are also participants in the New Covenant, even if only by desire. [/quote] isn't this statement is totally selfcontradictory? I mean John 14:6 says it pretty plainly, doesn't it? THE way, as in there is NO other way. THE life, as in HE IS THE ONLY WAY to live. THE truth...as in...you know...THE truth. so, if BAPTISM is REQUIRED, which it is...how can someone that doesn't KNOW God, much less Christ, follow His laws...or even desire to be saved by something he's never known? the "basic desire" to be good is not the basic desire to KNOW GOD...(for there is NONE that does good, no, NOT ONE...). I can't know my next door neighbor unless I go over and introduce myself, have them over for dinner, borrow some nails...GET TO KNOW THEM... so you can't get saved unless you profess that God is God, and Jesus Christ is your Lord and Saviour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted March 4, 2004 Share Posted March 4, 2004 Is there a salvation for infants or those so severely handicapped they are not capable of basic thought? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted March 4, 2004 Share Posted March 4, 2004 No, it's not self-contradictory. If those who, through no fault of their own, go to heaven, it's because of Christ and what He did for them. He died for everyone. We can't possibly know if they WILL be saved, but we believe they CAN be saved. Yet because of the uncertaintly, we can't just take an attitude of one religion being as good as another. As for baptism being required, there's also such a thing as baptism of desire. You don't have magic eyes to see into the hearts and souls of others. You don't know what sort of things he's working in their lives. But again, did they have the opportunity to get to know the Lord and reject it, or did they somehow never get that opportunity? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted March 4, 2004 Share Posted March 4, 2004 [quote name='Brother Adam' date='Mar 4 2004, 05:50 PM'] Doesn't Romans 1:20 say that there is no excuse? [/quote] Read the following 2 verses: 21 for although they knew God they did not accord him glory as God or give him thanks. Instead, they became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless minds were darkened. 22 While claiming to be wise, they became geniuses . . . It's referring to people who are vincibly ignorant, not invincibly ignorant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted March 4, 2004 Share Posted March 4, 2004 [quote name='Brother Adam' date='Mar 4 2004, 06:31 PM'] Is there a salvation for infants or those so severely handicapped they are not capable of basic thought? [/quote] yes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iacobus Posted March 5, 2004 Share Posted March 5, 2004 Doesn't the CCC say that salvation for those who didn't know Christ but strived to live a moral and just life can be saved. And about infants that we rely on the grace of a all merciful God? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted March 5, 2004 Share Posted March 5, 2004 [quote name='Dave' date='Mar 4 2004, 05:42 PM'] yes [/quote] I was asking lumberjack in an effort to make a point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatcatholic Posted March 5, 2004 Share Posted March 5, 2004 [quote name='the lumberjack' date='Mar 4 2004, 04:58 PM'] isn't this statement is totally selfcontradictory? I mean John 14:6 says it pretty plainly, doesn't it? THE way, as in there is NO other way. THE life, as in HE IS THE ONLY WAY to live. THE truth...as in...you know...THE truth. so, if BAPTISM is REQUIRED, which it is...how can someone that doesn't KNOW God, much less Christ, follow His laws...or even desire to be saved by something he's never known? the "basic desire" to be good is not the basic desire to KNOW GOD...(for there is NONE that does good, no, NOT ONE...). I can't know my next door neighbor unless I go over and introduce myself, have them over for dinner, borrow some nails...GET TO KNOW THEM... so you can't get saved unless you profess that God is God, and Jesus Christ is your Lord and Saviour. [/quote] first, consider this: According to the teaching of Holy Writ, perfect love possesses justifying power. [b]Luke 7:47[/b]: "Many sins are forgiven her because she hath loved much." [b]John 14:21[/b]: " He that loveth me shall be loved of my Father: l and I will love him and will manifest myself to him." [b]Luke 23:43 [/b]" This day thou shalt be with me in Paradise." these verses (and there are many others) suggest that salvation, or at least sanctification, can be achieved through living a virtuous life. the theif on the cross is saved b/c he speaks for justice. that said, the person who tries to live such a life can be saved, even if he doesn't "know God" as you conceptualize it. for one, i say that if a person always strives for good, he does know God--b/c God is love, God is good, and b/c God placed upon that man's heart the natural law that helps him discern right from wrong. secondly, what do u say of those who are mentally handicapped and physically unable to receive this formal knowledge of God? are they not able to join God in heaven? all they can do is live a good life the best way they know how, just like any man who does not know God. i am wondering if maybe you are getting too caught up on the words "baptism of desire" and missing the concept. the concept is this: --any person who lives a good life can obtain salvation this is an entirely biblical concept. pax christi, phatcatholic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted March 5, 2004 Share Posted March 5, 2004 [quote name='Brother Adam' date='Mar 4 2004, 10:49 PM'] I was asking lumberjack in an effort to make a point [/quote] Oops! Sorry. (retreats, highly embarrassed) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted March 5, 2004 Author Share Posted March 5, 2004 [quote name='Iacobus' date='Mar 4 2004, 09:44 PM'] Doesn't the CCC say that salvation for those who didn't know Christ but strived to live a moral and just life can be saved. And about infants that we rely on the grace of a all merciful God? [/quote] Yes... so does the bible. [b]Romans 2:12 [/b] All who sin outside the law will also perish without reference to it, and all who sin under the law will be judged in accordance with it. [b]13 [/b]For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather, those who observe the law will be justified. [b]14 [/b]For when the Gentiles who do not have the law by nature observe the prescriptions of the law, they are a law for themselves even though they do not have the law. [b]15 [/b]They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts, 6 while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even defend them [b]16 [/b]on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge people's hidden works through Christ Jesus. God Bless, Your Servant in Christ, ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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