cmotherofpirl Posted March 4, 2004 Share Posted March 4, 2004 Because they go together. The whole OT resounds with the word repent. But the OT people could only repent, but not be saved from their sins. Baptism washes away the original and any actual sins committed. We are then members of the Kingdom, and salvation is possible. THe gates of Heaven are open to the Just. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the lumberjack Posted March 4, 2004 Share Posted March 4, 2004 then why did the Lord have John 3:16-18 put in if baptism is ABSOLUTELY necessary? 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. again, I'm NOT saying we SHOULDN'T be baptized...read my other posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatcatholic Posted March 4, 2004 Share Posted March 4, 2004 [quote name='the lumberjack' date='Mar 4 2004, 11:43 AM'] then why did the Lord have John 3:16-18 put in if baptism is ABSOLUTELY necessary? 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. again, I'm NOT saying we SHOULDN'T be baptized...read my other posts. [/quote] it may help for me to emphasize the fact that baptism is a sacrament OF FAITH. infants are baptized b/c of the faith of their family and of the Church. adult converts to Catholicism are baptized b/c of thier faith in Christ and in His Church. w/ that in mind, i actually see catholics and protestants as being in agreement concerning salvation by faith. where we disagree is in 2 particular nuances: 1. how directly faith plays a role in salvation --to protestants, faith saves in that once you make that profession of faith, you are "saved." to catholics, faith saves in that it prompts one to be baptized. 2. how we define "salvation" as it relates to this faith. --the "salvation" that catholics receive through faith and baptism is "initial salvation" b/c, although we are justified and sanctified through it, we are not eternally secure b/c we still have the will to turn away from God and sin. we don't know if we are "saved" until we die in relationship w/ God. therefore, faith "saves" only to the degree to which it remains obedient. to most protestants, this salvation by faith is eternal. once one recieves it, they can never lose it. i don't see any of the verses that defend salvation by faith as contradicting catholic belief and practice, since we too are saved by faith. we just have different understandings of what "saved by faith" means. therefore, it seems more expedient to address the particular nuances, instead of "salvation by faith" in a general sense. have i made sense here? let me know.... pax christi, phatcatholic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the lumberjack Posted March 4, 2004 Share Posted March 4, 2004 [quote name='phatcatholic' date='Mar 4 2004, 12:02 PM'] it may help for me to emphasize the fact that baptism is a sacrament OF FAITH. infants are baptized b/c of the faith of their family and of the Church. adult converts to Catholicism are baptized b/c of thier faith in Christ and in His Church. w/ that in mind, i actually see catholics and protestants as being in agreement concerning salvation by faith. where we disagree is in 2 particular nuances: 1. how directly faith plays a role in salvation --to protestants, faith saves in that once you make that profession of faith, you are "saved." to catholics, faith saves in that it prompts one to be baptized. 2. how we define "salvation" as it relates to this faith. --the "salvation" that catholics receive through faith and baptism is "initial salvation" b/c, although we are justified and sanctified through it, we are not eternally secure b/c we still have the will to turn away from God and sin. we don't know if we are "saved" until we die in relationship w/ God. therefore, faith "saves" only to the degree to which it remains obedient. to most protestants, this salvation by faith is eternal. once one recieves it, they can never lose it. have i made sense here? let me know.... pax christi, phatcatholic [/quote] actually, besides the infant baptism, and baptism by desire...you're totally on point with what you said man... it was like I typed that... which is really freakin cool. that is why I am in like with you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted March 4, 2004 Share Posted March 4, 2004 [quote name='the lumberjack' date='Mar 4 2004, 01:43 PM'] then why did the Lord have John 3:16-18 put in if baptism is ABSOLUTELY necessary? 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. again, I'm NOT saying we SHOULDN'T be baptized...read my other posts. [/quote] Scripture is consistant, not fragmentary pieces. It all hangs together, and not everything is explicit in each and every paragraph or book. Baptism is a given to John, and does not have to be explicitly explained every time something related is mentioned. He is preaching to the choir, so to speak. There were whole generations of christians baptised before the Gospel of John was even written. If I tell you to get the car over here quick, do I have to explain to turn the engine on first. Or isn't that implicit and a given in the request to move the car? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the lumberjack Posted March 4, 2004 Share Posted March 4, 2004 it would depend on whether or not I've ever driven, heard of, or seen a car... wouldn't it? I'm just answering your analogy with another...equally as valid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted March 4, 2004 Share Posted March 4, 2004 not really, since you knew exactly what I meant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Huether Posted March 4, 2004 Share Posted March 4, 2004 [quote name='the lumberjack' date='Mar 4 2004, 10:43 AM'] then why did the Lord have John 3:16-18 put in if baptism is ABSOLUTELY necessary? 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. again, I'm NOT saying we SHOULDN'T be baptized...read my other posts. [/quote] What does "believe in him" mean? Is it just to acknowledge his existence? Or is it to believe in and do and practice what He says. If it is the latter, then we best be obliged to listen to His Church. For Christ said, "whoever listens to you, listens to Me". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Huether Posted March 4, 2004 Share Posted March 4, 2004 [quote name='the lumberjack' date='Mar 4 2004, 10:43 AM'] then why did the Lord have John 3:16-18 put in if baptism is ABSOLUTELY necessary? 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. again, I'm NOT saying we SHOULDN'T be baptized...read my other posts. [/quote] What does "believe in him" mean? Is it just to acknowledge his existence? Or is it to believe in and do and practice what He says. If it is the latter, then we best be obliged to listen to His Church. For Christ said, "whoever listens to you, listens to Me". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted March 4, 2004 Share Posted March 4, 2004 Think of the parable of the sheep and the goats. Didn't Jesus condemn them because of their works or lack thereof rather on account of their faith? I mean, the goats addressed Him as "Lord," so they surely believed in Him! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the lumberjack Posted March 4, 2004 Share Posted March 4, 2004 yes He did Dave, so who's to say that some of those goats WEREN'T/aren't/won't be baptized??? the sheep are God's sheep, the TRUE believers and followers...the goats are the people that pass themselves off as sheep, the "religious" people...the selfrighteous pharisees and saducees of our day. wouldn't you say? so go ahead and pull the car around! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted March 4, 2004 Share Posted March 4, 2004 Who's to say they were ALWAYS goats? They may have started off as sheep. And why must you use the puke smiley in all your posts? Just curious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the lumberjack Posted March 4, 2004 Share Posted March 4, 2004 evolution is a WHOLE 'nother topic, dave... and I use the pukey smilies out of habit...just...no real reason. you should see me fake a gag...that is a SITE! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted March 4, 2004 Share Posted March 4, 2004 [quote name='the lumberjack' date='Mar 4 2004, 04:57 PM'] evolution is a WHOLE 'nother topic, dave... and I use the pukey smilies out of habit...just...no real reason. you should see me fake a gag...that is a SITE! [/quote] I'm not talking about evolution. Now answer the question! Who's to say they couldn't have started out faithful but ended up unfaithful? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted March 4, 2004 Share Posted March 4, 2004 ha! dang Dave! hehe.. "Now answer the question!!", it's like an interrogation or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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