Baptism Is Required

[ironmonk]

Lumberjack,

I know much was cover by our brothers and sisters, so I'll be brief.

You wrote "Where is that in the bible?"

I ask, where did we get the bible?

We did not have the New Testament together as "Canon" - known to be inspired - until around 400 AD.

http://www.Britannica.com - Look up "New Testament Canon" at Britannica. Then look up "Catholicism"

Who where the faithful men that the Apostle's taught and made disciples of?

Many of the wrote, and we still have their writings, just as we have the Scriptures.

You can buy them for $249 here: http://www.logos.com/products/details/518

Or you can read them for free here: http://www.NewAdvent.org/Fathers/

If Baptism replaced circumcision, and circumcision was the law, where does the bible say that we do not have to be baptized? The thief was a special case, he had no chance to get baptized and Jesus is God, He can make exceptions.

Here is just a few things the First Christians had to say about Baptism....

Hermas

"‘I have heard, sir,’ said I [to the Shepherd], ‘from some teacher, that there is no other repentance except that which took place when we went down into the water and obtained the remission of our former sins.’ He said to me, ‘You have heard rightly, for so it is’" (The Shepherd 4:3:1–2 [A.D. 80]).

Justin Martyr

"As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly . . . are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Except you be born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:3]" (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).

Origen

"It is not possible to receive forgiveness of sins without baptism" (Exhortation to the Martyrs 30 [A.D. 235]).

Cyril of Jerusalem

"If any man does not receive baptism, he does not have salvation. The only exception is the martyrs, who even without water will receive the kingdom.

. . . For the Savior calls martyrdom a baptism, saying, ‘Can you drink the cup which I drink and be baptized with the baptism with which I am to be baptized [Mark 10:38]?’ Indeed, the martyrs too confess, by being made a spectacle to the world, both to angels and to men [1 Cor. 4:9]" (Catechetical Lectures 3:10 [A.D. 350]).

John Chrysostom

"Do not be surprised that I call martyrdom a baptism, for here too the Spirit comes in great haste and there is the taking away of sins and a wonderful and marvelous cleansing of the soul, and just as those being baptized are washed in water, so too those being martyred are washed in their own blood" (Panegyric on St. Lucian 2 [A.D. 387]).

Augustine

"There are three ways in which sins are forgiven: in baptism, in prayer, and in the greater humility of penance; yet God does not forgive sins except to the baptized" (Sermons to Catechumens on the Creed 7:15 [A.D. 395]).

"I do not hesitate to put the Catholic catechumen, burning with divine love, before a baptized heretic. Even within the Catholic Church herself we put the good catechumen ahead of the wicked baptized person. . . . For Cornelius, even before his baptism, was filled up with the Holy Spirit [Acts 10:44–48], while Simon [Magus], even after his baptism, was puffed up with an unclean spirit [Acts 8:13–19]" (On Baptism, Against the Donatists 4:21:28 [A.D. 400]).

"When we speak of within and without in relation to the Church, it is the position of the heart that we must consider, not that of the body. . . . All who are within [the Church] in heart are saved in the unity of the ark [by baptism of desire]" (ibid., 5:28:39).

There are many more, but I don't want to make this to long.

Early in the writings of Christianity the big argument was to have a child baptized as soon as they were born or to wait eight days... That should speak volumes, if you want to follow what the Bible Christians taught.

The only Bible Christians are the Catholic Church.

God Bless, Your Servant in Christ,

ironmonk

A few resources for you, if you can rebut what you find at these sites, you'll be able to rebut anyone here:

http://www.ScriptureCatholic.com

http://www.Catholic.com

http://www.Catholic-Pages.com

http://www.USCCB.org

http://www.NewAdvent.org

http://www.MoralTruth.com

Edited March 3, 2004 by ironmonk

[ironmonk]

Bump... just want to make sure Lumberjack doesn't miss this....

Your Servant in Christ,

ironmonk

[the lumberjack]

to begin with, the Bible is very clear that all Christians are expected to be baptized in water. jesus told His disciple that they were to baptize new disciple of all nations, not just Jews (Matt. 28:19), and since it is Christ alone who baptizes men in the Spirit (Mark 1:8), the baptism administered by the disciples must be in water. This means that to dispense with water baptism is to disobey CHRIST.

By the same token, the New Testament makes it EQUALLY clear that men can become saved as Christians prior to receiving water baptism. Cornelius's family received the Holy Spirit and was manifesting the gifts of the Spirit after hearing the gospel but before being baptized (Acts 10:44-48). This observation must be balanced, however, by the fact that baptism was not an "optional extra" for Cornelius's family; it was a command (Acts 10:48) that they were expected to obey. However, it was to obedience to this command that saved them, but their believing in Christ (Acts 10:43). Baptism is the expected initial outward response to the gospel, but it is not part of the gospel itself (1 Corinthians 1:17).

I mean, yeah, you could use different texts like Acts 2:38,Acts 22:16, Mark 16:16, John 3:5, Romans 6:4, and 1 Peter 3:21, but a CAREFUL examination of them will show that NONE of them PROVE that baptism is a necessary prerequisite for SALVATION, though they DO PROVE that baptism was an assumed initial response to the gospel of salvation.

so when I say that baptism isn't ESSENTIAL for salvation, I DON'T mean that in ANY way can it be dispensed with or that God does not expect new converts to be baptized. He DOES. I could go even further and say that if a person claims to be a Christian, understands that the Lord COMMANDED every Christian to be baptized, and yet refuses baptism, it might be that that person ain't really saved(...but that ain't the case in EVERY case).

every Christian SHOULD be baptized...AFTER they're saved. Salvation THEN baptism...

[b]NOT salvation IS baptism[/b]

and I've NEVER read ANY thing in the Bible about "baptism by desire"... nor does any translation of any words bring that up...and if it were so...then why couldn't we just DESIRE it and get it over with...?


love.
sorry its sooo long.
I really do love you guys.

[God Conquers]

Why would Jesus command it if it weren't necessary. That makes no sense. "Save people and oh, by the way, put some water on them too for no particular reason."

[the lumberjack]

please read my WHOLE post...not just the parts that tick you off.

[God Conquers]

I read it all. What you saind though does not follow.

Christ didn't say go save all nations. He said go BAPTIZE all nations.

Still, if baptism isn't necessary for salvation why did Christ command it? What does it mean? What does it do? Does it serve any pupose? The writers of the gospels didn't just put that in the bible for no reason. It must have incredible significance.

[Ellenita]

Does the church say baptism [i]is necessary [/i]for salvation? What about young children who might have a knowledge and love for God but whose parents are not religious and so through no fault of their own they haven't been baptised?

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='Ellenita' date='Mar 3 2004, 07:20 PM'] Does the church say baptism [i]is necessary [/i]for salvation? What about young children who might have a knowledge and love for God but whose parents are not religious and so through no fault of their own they haven't been baptised? [/quote]
baptism by desire.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='Ellenita' date='Mar 3 2004, 09:20 PM'] Does the church say baptism [i]is necessary [/i]for salvation? What about young children who might have a knowledge and love for God but whose parents are not religious and so through no fault of their own they haven't been baptised? [/quote]
We can only trust in God's Mercy.

Children that die without baptism go to [i]Paradise[/i] - also known as Abraham's Bosum.

This is where the faithful before Christ went. Maybe they will stay there until judgement day, maybe Christ or an Apostle/Saint preaches to them so that they are saved... but baptism is a must, as it has been taught for 2000 years.

Those people who die before they are baptized but have every intention of being baptized are baptized by desire.


Lumberjack,

Why do you disagree with the first Christians in regards to baptism? The very people taught by the Apostles say that you are wrong.



Your Servant in Christ,
ironmonk

[the lumberjack]

am I really disagreeing?

Christ said it...we should do it. I don't see disagreement there.

but, IF we die BEFORE/without getting baptized, we WILL not go to hell.

baptism by desire is NOT a biblical concept....like I've said, NO WHERE in the WHOLE Bible does it even elude that it works like that.

and as for being saved after you die...sorry, thats A WHOLE OTHER UNbiblical topic.

Hebrews 9:27

[ironmonk]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Mar 3 2004, 11:34 PM'] am I really disagreeing?

[/quote]
Yes, you are disagreeing. I posted a few quotes for you, there are more... I gave you the links so you can go look for yourself.

Please, if you want to dialog, please do some homework, don't just say what you've already said with very little scripture and no first Christian writings. It's not a philosophical question lumberjack, it's a real factual answer.... because we have the people who gave us the bible writing about it.

St. Augustine was on one of the Councils that determined the New Testament canon... that speaks volumes on what the bible means about Baptism.


[quote]Christ said it...we should do it.  I don't see disagreement there.

but, IF we die BEFORE/without getting baptized, we WILL not go to hell.

baptism by desire is NOT a biblical concept....like I've said, NO WHERE in the WHOLE Bible does it even elude that it works like that.

and as for being saved after you die...sorry, thats A WHOLE OTHER UNbiblical topic.

Hebrews 9:27[/quote]

The Church does not teach that we will go to hell if we do not get baptised. The Church teaches that we must be baptised to be saved.

For those who do not know of Christ and are not baptised, they will go to Abraham's Bossum - aka Paradise. They still have a chance to be saved if they accept Christ. If we know of Christ and can be baptised, we must be baptised.

You fail to realize that the bible is not a be all end all to Christianity.
The Church is.

We know of the bible because of the Catholic Church protecting it. There were over 200 books and letters considered for the New Testament, but it was the 27 chosen by the Councils of the Catholic Church that ALL who say that they are Christian follow.

[b]"We are compelled to concede to the Papists that they have the Word of God, that we received it from them, and that without them we should have no knowledge of it at all."
~ Martin Luther, Commentary on St. John[/b]

You are correct in saying that the Catholic Church is not "bibilical" in the sense that the Catholic Church did not come after the bible.

A correct way of saying something like that would be that "The Catholic Church is not biblical because the Bible is Catholic." or "The Bible is full of Catholicism".

Everything that the Bible teaches is a Catholic Church concept.
The Catholic Church was before the New Testament. Built on the foundation of the Apostles with Christ Himself as the cornerstone. Christ said go out and make disciples of nations; those disciples where and are the Catholic Church.

No where in the whole bible does it say that everything is in the bible. No where does Jesus tell people to write a book.

What does the bible call the pillar and foundation of truth?
Answer: The Church.
[b]1 Tim 3:15[/b]
But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is [u]the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth[/u].


What does the Church that Christ built look like?

[b]It has Bishops, Priests, and Deacons.[/b]

[b]Bishops [/b](episcopoi) have the care of multiple congregations and appoint, ordain, and discipline priests and deacons. They are often called "evangelists" in the New Testament. Examples of first-century bishops include Timothy and Titus (1 Tim. 5:19–22; 2 Tim. 4:5; Titus 1:5).

[b]Priests [/b](presbuteroi) are also known as "presbyters" or "elders." In fact, the English term "priest" is simply a contraction of the Greek word presbuteros. They have the responsibility of teaching, governing, and providing the sacraments in a given congregation (1 Tim. 5:17; Jas. 5:14–15).

[b]Deacons [/b](diakonoi) are the assistants of the bishops and are responsible for teaching and administering certain Church tasks, such as the distribution of food (Acts 6:1–6).


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[b]It is hierarchical.[/b]
[b]Matt. 16:18; 18:18 [/b]- Jesus uses "ecclesia" only twice in the NT. This proves Jesus intended a visible, unified, hierarchical, and authoritative Church.

[b]1 Cor. 12:28[/b] - God Himself appoints the various positions of authority within the Church. God gives His children authority.

[b]Eph. 4:11[/b] - Church is hierarchical and includes apostles, prophets, pastors, and teachers, all charged to build up the Church.

[b]Phil. 1:1[/b] - Paul addresses the bishops and deacons of the Church. They can all trace their unbroken lineage back to the apostles.

[b]1 Tim. 3:1; Titus 1:7 [/b]- Christ's Church has bishops (episcopoi) who are direct successors of the apostles. The bishops can trace the authority conferred upon them back to the apostles.

[b]1 Tim. 5:17; Titus 1:5; James 5:14 [/b]- Christ's Church also has elders or priests (presbuteroi) who serve the bishops.

[b]1 Tim. 3:8[/b] - Christ's Church also has deacons (diakonoi). His Church has a hierarchy of authority - bishops, priests and deacons.


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[b]It has the Body and Blood of Christ - The Real Presence[/b]

John 6:53 Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.
54 Whoever eats 19 my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.
55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.
56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.
57 Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.
58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever." .....
......

63 It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh 22 is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
64 But there are some of you who do not believe." Jesus knew from the beginning the ones who would not believe and the one who would betray him.
65 And he said, "For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by my Father."
66 As a result of this, many (of) his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him.


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[b]The Church (Clergy) can forgive sins....[/b]

[b]St John 20:21[/b]
(Jesus) said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you."
[b]22 [/b]And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit.
[b]23 [/b]Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."

[b]St James 5:14[/b]
Is anyone among you sick? He should summon the presbyters of the church, and they should pray over him and anoint (him) with oil in the name of the Lord,
[b]15 [/b]and the prayer of faith will save the sick person, and the Lord will raise him up. If he has committed any sins, he will be forgiven.
[b]16 [/b]Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful.

[b]St. Matt 28:18[/b] Then Jesus approached and said to them, "All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
[b]19 [/b]Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,
[b]20 [/b]teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age."

[b]Matt. 18:18[/b]
"Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven"



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[b]It will never be overcome by the Netherworld, it will be like a city on a mountain for all time, it will be Guided by Christ; it will even speak for Christ - It will have ONE Faith.... [/b]

[b]St. Matt 16:18[/b] "And so I say to you, you are Peter (Kephas), and upon this rock(Kephas) I will build my church, 13 and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it."
[b]
John 21:15 [/b]
8 9 10 When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you." He said to him, "Feed my lambs."
[b]16 [/b]He then said to him a second time, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you." He said to him, "Tend my sheep."
[b]17 [/b]He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" Peter was distressed that he had said to him a third time, "Do you love me?" and he said to him, "Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you." (Jesus) said to him, "Feed my sheep."

[b]St. Matt 28:18 [/b]
11 Then Jesus approached and said to them, "All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
[b]19 [/b]Go, therefore, 12 and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,
[b]20 [/b]teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. 13 And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age."

[b]Luke 10:16 [/b]"He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me"

[b]Matt 5:13 [/b]
11 12 "You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its taste, with what can it be seasoned? It is no longer good for anything but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.
[b]14 [/b]
You are the light of the world. A city set on a mountain cannot be hidden.
[b]15[/b]
Nor do they light a lamp and then put it under a bushel basket; it is set on a lampstand, where it gives light to all in the house.



[b]Ephesians 4:1[/b]
1 I, then, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to live in a manner worthy of the call you have received,
[b]2 [/b]with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another through love,
[b]3 [/b]striving to preserve the unity of the spirit through the bond of peace:
[b]4 [/b]2 one body and one Spirit, as you were also called to the one hope of your call;
[b]5 [/b]one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
[b]6 [/b]one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.


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Only One Church, One Faith... has been around almost 2000 years and can fit what the Church in the Bible "looks" like... it can be seen today...


Baptism was/is required of ALL who can be baptized. As the Scriptures and Church teach.

[b]Matt. 28:19-20[/b] - Jesus commands the apostles to baptize all people "in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit." Many Protestant churches are now teaching that baptism is only a symbolic ritual, and not what actually cleanses us from original sin. This belief contradicts Scripture and the 2,000 year-old teaching of the Church.

[b]Acts 2:38 [/b]- Peter commands them to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ in order to be actually forgiven of sin, not just to partake of a symbolic ritual.

[b]Matt. 28:19-20; Acts 2:38[/b] - there is nothing in these passages or elsewhere in the Bible about baptism being symbolic. There is also nothing about just accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior in order to be saved.

[b]Mark 16:16 [/b]- Jesus said "He who believes AND is baptized will be saved." Jesus says believing is not enough. Baptism is also required. This is because baptism is salvific, not just symbolic.

[b]John 3:3,5[/b] - unless we are "born again" of water and Spirit in baptism, we cannot enter into the kingdom of God. The Greek word for the phrase "born again" is "anothen" which literally means begotten from above. See, for example, John 3:31 where "anothen" is so used. Baptism deals with the matter of salvation, not just symbolism.

[b]Acts 8:12-13; 36; 10:47[/b] - if belief is all one needs to be saved, why is everyone instantly baptized after learning of Jesus?

[b]Acts 16:15; 31-33; 18:8; 19:2,5[/b] - these texts present more examples of people learning of Jesus, and then immediately being baptized. If accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior is all one needs to do to be saved, then why does everyone in the early Church immediately seek baptism?

[b]Acts 9:18 [/b]- Paul, even though he was directly chosen by Christ and immediately converted to Christianity, still had to be baptized to be forgiven his sin. This is a powerful text which demonstrates the salvific efficacy of water baptism, even for those who decide to give their lives to Christ.

[b]Acts 22:16 [/b]- Ananias tells Paul, "arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins," even though Paul was converted directly by Jesus Christ. This proves that Paul's acceptance of Jesus as personal Lord and Savior was not enough to be forgiven of his sin and saved. The sacrament of baptism is required.

[b]Acts 22:16 [/b]- further, Ananias' phrase "wash away" comes from the Greek word "apolouo." "Apolouo" means an actual cleansing which removes sin. It is not a symbolic covering up of sin.

[b]Rom. 6:4[/b] - in baptism, we actually die with Christ so that we, like Him, might be raised to newness of life. This means that, by virtue of our baptism, our sufferings are not in vain. They are joined to Christ and become efficacious for our salvation.

[b]1 Cor. 6:11 [/b]- Paul says they were washed, sanctified, and justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, in reference to baptism.

[b]Gal. 3:27[/b] - whoever is baptized in Christ puts on Christ. Putting on Christ is not just symbolic. Christ actually dwells within our soul.

[b]Col. 2:12[/b] - in baptism, we literally die with Christ and are raised with Christ. It is a supernatural reality, not just a symbolic ritual. The Scriptures never refer to baptism as symbolic.

[b]Titus 3:5[/b] - He saved us by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit. This is a powerful text which proves that baptism regenerates our souls and is thus salvific. Regeneration is never symbolic.

[b]Heb. 10:22[/b] - in baptism, our hearts are sprinkled clean as our bodies are washed with pure water. Baptism regenerates us because it sanctifies our souls.

[b]1 Peter 3:21 [/b]- Peter expressly writes that baptism, corresponding to Noah's ark, is what actually saves us; it is not just symbolic or superficial like a bath. Also, the phrase "not as a removal of dirt from the body" is in reference to the Jewish ceremony of circumcision.

[b]Mark 16:16 [/b]- Jesus says that he who believes and is baptized will be saved. However, the Church has always taught that baptism is a normative, not an absolute necessity. There are some exceptions to the rule because God is not bound by His sacraments.

[b]Luke 23:39-43 [/b]- the good thief, although not baptized, shows that there is also a baptism by desire, as Jesus says to him that he will be in paradise. It should also be noted that when Jesus uses the word "paradise, " He did not mean heaven. Paradise, from the Hebrew "sheol" meant the realm of the righteous dead. This was the place of the dead who were destined for heaven, but who were captive until the Lord's resurrection.

[b]Matt. 20:22-23; Mark 10:38-39; Luke 12:50[/b] - there is also a baptism by blood. Lord says, "I have a baptism to be baptized with" referring to His death. Hence, the Church has always taught that those martyred for the faith may be saved without water baptism (e.g., the Holy Innocents).

[b]Mark 10:38 [/b]- Jesus says "are you able...to be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized?," referring to His death.

[b]1 John 5:6 [/b]- Jesus came by water and blood. He was baptized by both water and blood. Martyrs are baptized by blood.



God Bless, Your Servant in Christ,
ironmonk

[ironmonk]

As far as

[b]Hebrews 9:27 [/b]
Just as it is appointed that human beings die once, and after this the judgment,


Does it contradict:

[b]Revelation 20:6 [/b]
Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection. [u]The second death has no power over these[/u]; they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for (the) thousand years.
....

[b]13 [/b]The sea gave up its dead; then Death and Hades gave up their dead. All the dead were judged according to their deeds.
[b]14 [/b]Then Death and Hades were thrown into the pool of fire. ([u]This pool of fire is the second death.[/u] )
[b]15 [/b]Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the pool of fire.



So, there can only be one of two outcomes from this....

1.) your interpretation is wrong - and the Catholic view is right
OR
2.) the bible contradicts itself and there is no God




Something to think about and ask yourself...

Are you infallible when it comes to interpreting Scripture?


P.S... don't get in trouble while posting at work; this site can be addictive.

God Bless, Your Servant in Christ,
ironmonk

Edited March 4, 2004 by ironmonk

[phatcatholic]

lumberjack,

here are four articles on "baptism of desire" that you may find helpful, or at least intriguing (i hope that you will read them):
[b]--[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/DOCTRINE/BAPTISM.TXT"]Baptism: Exerpts from Various Sources[/url]
--[url="http://www.cin.org/mateo/91092110.html"]Baptism of Desire[/url]
--[url="http://www.cpats.org/CPATSAnswerDirectory/Answers_to_Questions/2003_11NovermberQuestions/_2003NovWhatIsBaptismByImplicitDesire.cfm"]What Is Baptism by Desire?[/url]
--[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm#X"]Substitutes for the Sacrament[/url][/b]

from the first article, i provide the following exerpt:

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[b]a) Baptism of desire[/b] (Baptismus flaminis sive Spiritus Sancti) Baptism of
desire is the explicit or implicit desire for sacramental baptism (votum
baptismi) associated with perfect contrition (contrition based on
charity).

The Council of Trent teaches that justification from original sin is not
possible " without the washing unto regeneration or the desire for the
same."

According to the teaching of Holy Writ, perfect love possesses justifying
power. [b]Luke 7:47:[/b] "Many sins are forgiven her because she hath loved
much." [b]John 14:21:[/b] " He that loveth me shall be loved of my Father: l and
I will love him and will manifest myself to him." [b]Luke 23:43 [/b]" This day thou shalt be with me in Paradise."

The chief witnesses from Tradition are St. Ambrose and St. Augustine. In
the funeral oration on the Emperor Valentine II, who died without Baptism,
St. Ambrose says: " Should he not acquire the grace for which he longed?
Certainly: As he desired it, he has attained it . . . His pious desire has
absolved him " (De obitu Valent. 51, 53). St. Augustine declared: " I find
that not only suffering for the sake of Christ can replace that which is
lacking in Baptism, but also faith and conversion of the heart (fidem
conversionemque cordis), if perhaps the shortness of the time does not
permit the celebration of the mystery , of Baptism " (De bapt. IV 22, 29).
In the period of early Scholasticism St. ! Bernard of Clairvaux (Ep. 77
c. 2 n. 6-9), Hugo of St. Victor (De sacr. 116, 7) and the Summa
Sententiarum (V 5) defended the possibility of Baptism of desire against
Peter Abelard. Cf. S. th. III 68, 2.

Baptism of desire works ex opere operantis. It bestows Sanctifying Grace,
which remits original sin, all actual sins, and the eternal punishments
for sin. Venial sins and temporal punishments for sin are remitted
according to the intensity of the subjective disposition. The baptismal
character is not imprinted nor is it the gateway to the other sacraments.
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i hope that among this info u will find an adequate defense.

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[God Conquers]

You simply aren't answering the question posed to you:

WHY would Jesus command baptism for every person? He MUST have a reason for it that is relevant to us.

[the lumberjack]

[quote name='God Conquers' date='Mar 3 2004, 07:06 PM'] Christ didn't say go save all nations. He said go BAPTIZE all nations.
[/quote]
then why, BEFORE He says to baptize, does Christ say, "Go and make disciples of all men, AND baptize them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost?"