friendofJPII Posted July 31, 2008 Author Share Posted July 31, 2008 [quote name='StColette' post='1613917' date='Jul 31 2008, 10:22 AM']Marian devotion may compliment the Eucharist, but it is still not a Sacrament and one does not have to have a Marian devotion in order to benefit from the Sacraments. And a person does not have to have a Marian devotion in order to receive the Sacraments. The argument here is that the surest way to holiness is through the Sacraments and not necessarily through the things that compliment the Sacraments.[/quote] Okay, St. Collete you win. I don't want to argue about the Rosary anymore because that negates the purpose of praying it. God Bless, friendofjpii Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilac_angel Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 (edited) [quote name='StColette' post='1613876' date='Jul 31 2008, 09:16 AM']When and where has the Church taught this? I'm not being sarcastic. I'm asking honestly where the Church has taught this. My understanding is that the Church teaches that the surest way to grow in holiness is through the reception of the Sacraments and with a great stress on the reception of the Holy Eucharist.[/quote] I'm reading an oldish Catholic book on the Holy Eucharist, and according to this author (and many saints), devotion to Our Lord in the blessed Sacrament is the surest way to grow in holiness. Many saints spent hours in front of the blessed sacrament and depended on simply that presence (and prayer in that presence) whenever they needed strength to go on. That makes a lot of sense, especially in light of the sacrament of receiving Christ most completely in communion, but different saints have different opinions and on what they decide to stress or feel that is the surest and quickest way to grow in holiness. They all have valid points, are all "right" in a sense, since everybody's circumstances are unique, and they don't have to be in perfect agreement. It only goes to show just how powerful each devotion is, and we can't really lose no matter which one we choose to emphasize, even for a time. Edited July 31, 2008 by lilac_angel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnydigit Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 when i was trying to compare the devotions in favor of the Rosary, i couldn't objectively come up with any merits that would apply to everyone, but i did realize that devotions have come about in specific time periods throughout history, based on need. devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus used to be HUGE but nowadays you don't see it much. now the latest is the Divine Mercy, but i think for our times it is still relatively newer, and so the Rosary stands as the most developed and recognized for our generation, but it is starting to fade. my guess is that the Rosary requires an interest in going much deeper spiritually, which was more common in past generations and especially in the "Golden Age" of the 50's, but nowadays the faith is much weaker, and most people just aren't ready for it. so now comes the Divine Mercy, it is a new devotion taking a different perspective, challenging a new type of spirituality for this generation, and obviously, it is a bit easier for most people to get their feet wet. so i think the heavy pushers here are merely saying that now that you've got your feet wet, take the challenge to step up to the next level on your Rosary beads. .02 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilac_angel Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 [quote name='johnnydigit' post='1614190' date='Jul 31 2008, 01:30 PM']when i was trying to compare the devotions in favor of the Rosary, i couldn't objectively come up with any merits that would apply to everyone, but i did realize that devotions have come about in specific time periods throughout history, based on need. devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus used to be HUGE but nowadays you don't see it much. now the latest is the Divine Mercy, but i think for our times it is still relatively newer, and so the Rosary stands as the most developed and recognized for our generation, but it is starting to fade. my guess is that the Rosary requires an interest in going much deeper spiritually, which was more common in past generations and especially in the "Golden Age" of the 50's, but nowadays the faith is much weaker, and most people just aren't ready for it. so now comes the Divine Mercy, it is a new devotion taking a different perspective, challenging a new type of spirituality for this generation, and obviously, it is a bit easier for most people to get their feet wet. so i think the heavy pushers here are merely saying that now that you've got your feet wet, take the challenge to step up to the next level on your Rosary beads. .02[/quote] so you're saying a devotion like the Divine Mercy is getting your feet wet..that's what i think you're saying anyway. because most people would disagree that Adoration does not require an interest in going much deeper spiritually. in fact, you need a pretty strong faith to be at Adoration in the first place, and then spend time Adoring the Eucharist, which outsiders see as a piece of bread. then most people spend time in deep meditation, contemplation, usually factoring Scripture and prayer into their devotions. contemplative prayer takes you to one of the highest levels of spirituality, especially when it's done right in front of Christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StColette Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 [quote name='lilac_angel' post='1614146' date='Jul 31 2008, 01:56 PM']I'm reading an oldish Catholic book on the Holy Eucharist, and according to this author (and many saints), devotion to Our Lord in the blessed Sacrament is the surest way to grow in holiness.[/quote] No argument there, receiving the Eucharist would be part of having a devotion to Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament. And thus why I said that the reception of the Sacraments is the surest way to Heaven. [quote]That makes a lot of sense, especially in light of the sacrament of receiving Christ most completely in communion, but different saints have different opinions and on what they decide to stress or feel that is the surest and quickest way to grow in holiness.[/quote] Very true, but I would say that reception of the Sacraments would be the foundation from which holiness grows. [quote]It only goes to show just how powerful each devotion is, and we can't really lose no matter which one we choose to emphasize, even for a time.[/quote] Exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilac_angel Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 (edited) [quote name='StColette' post='1614199' date='Jul 31 2008, 01:47 PM']No argument there, receiving the Eucharist would be part of having a devotion to Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament. And thus why I said that the reception of the Sacraments is the surest way to Heaven.[/quote] Well, it wasn't just talking about receiving the Eucharist. Some said actually just spending time before the blessed sacrament was the surest way to speed along with holiness. So like I said, varying opinions, when it comes to devotions that come secondary to the Sacraments. I agree that the Sacraments are of the utmost importance. We can be more drawn to them through our devotions, which is great. Edited July 31, 2008 by lilac_angel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StColette Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 [quote name='johnnydigit' post='1614190' date='Jul 31 2008, 02:30 PM']so i think the heavy pushers here are merely saying that now that you've got your feet wet, take the challenge to step up to the next level on your Rosary beads. [/quote] Not sure exactly how to take this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StColette Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 [quote name='lilac_angel' post='1614202' date='Jul 31 2008, 02:50 PM']Well, it wasn't just talking about receiving the Eucharist. Some said actually just spending time before the blessed sacrament was the surest way to speed along with holiness. So like I said, varying opinions, when it comes to devotions that come secondary to the Sacraments. I agree that the Sacraments are of the utmost importance.[/quote] Okay, sorry lol I got confused because you quoted my spill about the Sacraments being the most important and then you made it sound as if Eucharist Adoration was lol Confusion on my part Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeresaBenedicta Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 [quote name='friendofJPII' post='1613873' date='Jul 31 2008, 11:11 AM']True, but Marian devotion is the surest way to grow in holiness. The Rosary is the crown of Marian devotion. Given Mary's role in the Church and in our salvation, I do not understand how one could completly ignore [i]her prayer.[/quote] Hmm. See, I've struggled back and forth with this. First, I don't think that "Marian devotion is the surest way to grow in holiness" but that "Mary is the surest way to Christ." Mary will, without any doubt whatsoever, bring us closer to Christ. That is for sure. But, I think you and I have a different idea of what Marian devotion is. You say the the Rosary is the crown of Marian devotion... I say that a humble, submissive heart being offered to the Blessed Mother is the crown of Marian devotion. Trust. Without the proper interior disposition towards the Blessed Mother, any Rosary you pray is worth nill. So yes, I believe I agree with you that somesort of Marian devotion is needed-- even if that devotion is merely recognize and accepting the Blessed Mother's great role in our salvation. Some people are called to a more passive devotion to the Blessed Mother (like myself... I know Mary and I love her and I entrust myself to her care, knowing she will protect and guide me, because she is my mother). Some people are called to a more active devotion to the Blessed Mother (like yourself and others who feel called to a devotion to the Rosary or the wearing of a scapular or total consecration). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilac_angel Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 [quote name='StColette' post='1614206' date='Jul 31 2008, 01:53 PM']Okay, sorry lol I got confused because you quoted my spill about the Sacraments being the most important and then you made it sound as if Eucharist Adoration was lol Confusion on my part [/quote] sorry about that... confusion was my fault.. it was sort of an "agreement" response, though, yeah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 [quote name='Raphael' post='1613882' date='Jul 31 2008, 08:26 AM']StColette has been talking to me at home and I think she's fighting with you more than anything because there are a lot of scrupulous people on PM...and when you go pressing the importance of the Rosary so strongly, you give those poor people the impression that unless they pray the Rosary, they can't get to heaven and have no real hope.[/quote]thank you. speaking as someone who can be scrupulous, sometimes i feel guilty/sinful if i don't pray multiple rosaries a day! but i remind myself that what is better, 5 rosaries said quickly and not meditated upon, or 1 (or 2) rosaries said well and meditated on well? it helps a little bit. [quote name='Raphael' post='1613882' date='Jul 31 2008, 08:26 AM']As for the quickest and safest way to heaven, it's not the Rosary, it's the Eucharist, and you can quote St. Pius X on that.[/quote] gotta Pope St. Pius X!! [quote name='friendofJPII' post='1613912' date='Jul 31 2008, 09:16 AM']That being said, Michah, I understand firsthand what it feels like to suffer from scrupolisty and have countless devotions pushed on you at FUS, and how difficult it is to dicern what prayers to pray and how much to pray.[/quote] i'm sorry you had that experience. but reading what you wrote, how do you not see that you are (in a way) doing the same thing here on phatmass? [quote name='lilac_angel' post='1614146' date='Jul 31 2008, 11:56 AM']I'm reading an oldish Catholic book on the Holy Eucharist, and according to this author (and many saints), devotion to Our Lord in the blessed Sacrament is the surest way to grow in holiness. Many saints spent hours in front of the blessed sacrament and depended on simply that presence (and prayer in that presence) whenever they needed strength to go on. That makes a lot of sense, especially in light of the sacrament of receiving Christ most completely in communion, but different saints have different opinions and on what they decide to stress or feel that is the surest and quickest way to grow in holiness.[/quote] and wouldn't saints long ago been able to adore Our Lord but not necessarily receive Him? since frequent reception wasn't really the norm until Pope St. Pius X? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
friendofJPII Posted July 31, 2008 Author Share Posted July 31, 2008 I don't see the big conflict here. I feel like we debating Eucharist vs. Marian devotion, which is so silly. The two are intertwined because the two hearts are intertwined! Where Jesus is, there is Mary. The Sacraments are the quickest way to holiness (that along with a humble, contrite heart) but praying the Rosary can make us more disposed to recieve the Sacraments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeresaBenedicta Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 [quote name='friendofJPII' post='1614319' date='Jul 31 2008, 06:18 PM']I don't see the big conflict here. I feel like we debating Eucharist vs. Marian devotion, which is so silly. The two are intertwined because the two hearts are intertwined! Where Jesus is, there is Mary. The Sacraments are the quickest way to holiness (that along with a humble, contrite heart) but praying the Rosary can make us more disposed to recieve the Sacraments.[/quote] I think the biggest disagreement I have is that you say praying the Rosary is the ultimate Marian devotion. I disagree. I think that Marian devotion can be expressed in a multitude of different ways, each fitting to the spirituality of every individual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 [quote name='friendofJPII' post='1614319' date='Jul 31 2008, 03:18 PM']I don't see the big conflict here. I feel like we debating Eucharist vs. Marian devotion, which is so silly. The two are intertwined because the two hearts are intertwined! [b]Where Jesus is, there is Mary.[/b] The Sacraments are the quickest way to holiness (that along with a humble, contrite heart) but praying the Rosary can make us more disposed to receive the Sacraments.[/quote] +J.M.J.+ very well said and i actually agree with you. especially the bolded part, and it can be reversed "Where Mary is, there is Jesus" all devotions, whether towards saints or Our Lady, should lead us closer to Jesus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salterrae Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 JM + JT [quote name='friendofJPII' post='1614319' date='Jul 31 2008, 05:18 PM']I don't see the big conflict here. I feel like we debating Eucharist vs. Marian devotion, which is so silly. The two are intertwined because the two hearts are intertwined! Where Jesus is, there is Mary. The Sacraments are the quickest way to holiness (that along with a humble, contrite heart) but praying the Rosary can make us more disposed to recieve the Sacraments.[/quote] Totally agree. [quote name='TeresaBenedicta' post='1614325' date='Jul 31 2008, 05:22 PM']I think the biggest disagreement I have is that you say praying the Rosary is the ultimate Marian devotion. I disagree. I think that Marian devotion can be expressed in a multitude of different ways, each fitting to the spirituality of every individual.[/quote] Exactly. I've read about some who have a devotion merely to her name (probably read that in St. Alphonsus Liguori's [u]Glories of Mary[/u] which I highly recommend). I wish I could get a lot out of just that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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