The Rosary

[MissScripture]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1611735' date='Jul 29 2008, 02:39 PM']The Rosary is a very powerful prayer, but not necessary for heaven, nor necessary for holiness.

As for effectiveness, grace is received according to the openness of the recipient (quidquid recipiuntur recipiuntur secundum modo recipientis - whatever is received is received according to the mode of the recipient). Now, I would say that for most of us, we are not entirely open to grace because we still have some inclination toward sin, and therefore, while the Rosary is meant for us objectively, we cannot subjectively participate fully. There are others, however, who cannot pray the Rosary due to no fault of their own, such as brain damage (and therefore the Rosary is not meant for them, because God does not make us incapable of doing the things He calls us to).

There are still others, though, who do not pray the Rosary and have not (overall) been called to do so. The Eastern Rite Catholics don't generally make a practice of praying the Rosary, as it is a Western Tradition. There is absolutely no reason to tell one of them that they'd better pray the Rosary or they won't be as holy as they could get through their own spirituality.

What it comes down to is spirituality. Now, I'm not going to discourage anyone from the praying the Rosary; I highly recommend it and am trying to get back into the habit of it myself, but I'm also not going to go telling people that they absolutely must pray the Rosary. There are different spiritualities, and there needn't be any more explanation than that. We don't all need to be doing the same thing. The angels understand that; some are lower, others higher, but none of them try to belong to a different choir. The Seraphim and Cherubim don't tell the Principalities and Archangels that they should be spending all their "time" in perpetual adoration of their Lord and not going about their busy work. The Principalities and Archangels are busy with other things, but they were made according to their purpose, and do not have the same role or needs as the higher angels. Some saints spend hours in front of the Blessed Sacrament, others went to daily Mass, and still others went to Mass once a week, but spend their days in spiritual communion with God. They, perhaps, could only do that and nothing more, and they should not be told that they should have done more.

I'm not saying that you would tell them to do more, of course, but I hope you see my point.[/quote]
Wow. Thank you!

[quote name='friendofJPII' post='1613300' date='Jul 30 2008, 06:22 PM'][i]Yes, we should take the advice of the Holy Father but in this situation the Holy Father is not speaking in a matter that is infallible. The same argument is used in discussion about the Iraq War and the Death Penalty. Those are the personal opinions of the Holy Father and do not have to be agreed with by the faithful.[/i]

Woooohhh...wait a minute....there is a major distinction when the Pope speaks about issues in politics and when he speaks on matters of faith. One may differ with the Pope on issues surrounding the implementation of the Iraq war or illegal immigration, (the Church has some specific guidelines regarding the Death Panalty, however) but when he gives us new mysteries of Rosary to pray we should take that seriously. After all, if you can't trust the Pope on matters of faith and modes of prayer, what can you trust him on?!![/quote]
If I remember correctly, it was also said, when we were given these new mysteries, that we did not need to use them, and could stick with just the "original" ones if we so chose.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='friendofJPII' post='1613364' date='Jul 30 2008, 06:25 PM']yes, the LOTH should be highly regarded and [i]play a role[/i] in one's prayer life.[/quote]
+J.M.J.+
yup, they should pray it at least every day!

[johnnydigit]

[quote name='friendofJPII' post='1613344' date='Jul 30 2008, 06:14 PM']Here are some quotes from popes and saints regarding the Rosary:

"Among all the devotions approved by the Church none has been so favored by so many miracles as the devotion of the Most Holy Rosary" (Pope Pius IX).

"Say the Rosary every day to obtain peace for the world" (Our Lady of Fátima).

"There is no surer means of calling down God's blessings upon the family . . . than the daily recitation of the Rosary" (Pope Pius XII).

"We do not hesitate to affirm again publicly that we put great confidence in the Holy Rosary for the healing of evils of our times" (Pope Pius XII).

"No one can live continually in sin and continue to say the Rosary: either they will give up sin or they will give up the Rosary" (Bishop Hugh Doyle).

"The Rosary is a magnificent and universal prayer for the needs of the Church, the nations and the entire world" (Pope John XXIII).

"The Rosary is the compendium of the entire Gospel" (Pope Paul VI quoting Pope Pius XII).

"Meditation on the mysteries of the Rosary . . . can be an excellent preparation for the celebration of those same mysteries in the liturgical actions [i.e. the Mass] and can also become a continuing echo thereof" (Pope Paul VI).

"My impression is that the Rosary is of the greatest value not only according to the words of Our Lady at Fátima, but according to the effects of the Rosary one sees throughout history. My impression is that Our Lady wanted to give ordinary people, who might not know how to pray, this simple method of getting closer to God" (Sister Lucia, one of the seers of Fátima).

"How beautiful is the family that recites the Rosary every evening" (Pope John Paul II).

Pope John Paul II has called the Rosary his "favorite prayer," after the Mass and the Liturgy of the Hours.

St. Louis de Montfort warns us against both the ignorant and scholars who regard the Rosary as something of little importance..."the Rosary is a priceless treasure inspired by God."[/quote]

[b]"One Day through the Rosary and Scapular I will save the world." - Blessed Virgin Mary to Saint Dominic.[/b]

something tells me there is much, much more to be discovered about it than it being "merely a devotion". despite my current devotion - daily recitation, consecration, reading St. Louis de Montfort/Kolbe etc., i know i am still very ignorant of the "Secret of the Rosary" (still reading it).

bottom line is, yes it's an optional devotion not necessary for salvation, but we have barely scratched the surface of its merits and we are encouraged to be open and trust that it is an extremely worthwhile investment for all. we need to start to give it more priority, if not because of our own experiences or understanding, but because the Church and Saints advise it so strongly.

at the least, if you have other favorite devotions, perhaps the Rosary should be bumped up next on your list.



next thread, "The Divine Mercy Chaplet.. and why it needs to be recited with every Rosary!"

[johnnydigit]

[i]"Say the Rosary every day...
Pray, pray a lot and offer sacrifices for sinners...
I'm Our Lady of the Rosary.
[b]Only I will be able to help you.[/b]
...In the end My Immaculate Heart will triumph."
Our Lady at Fatima[/i]

==============

from St. Louis de Montfort's [u]The Secret of the Rosary[/u]
[url="http://www.circleofprayer.com/secret10.html"]http://www.circleofprayer.com/secret10.html[/url]
download book [url="http://www.theholyrosary.org/secret.zip"]http://www.theholyrosary.org/secret.zip[/url]


Ever since Saint Dominic established the devotion to the Holy Rosary up until the time when Blessed Alan de la Roche reestablished it in 1460 it has always been called the Psalter of Jesus and Mary. This is because it has the same number of Angelic Salutations as there are psalms in the Book of the Psalms of David. Since simple and uneducated people are not able to say the Psalms of David the Rosary is held to be just as fruitful for them as David's Psalter is for others.

But the Rosary can be considered to be even more valuable than the latter for three reasons:

1. Firstly, because the Angelic Psalter bears a nobler fruit, that of the Word Incarnate, whereas David's Psalter only prophesies His coming;
2. Secondly, just as the real thing is more important than its prefiguration and the body is more than its shadow, in the same way the Psalter of Our Lady is greater than David's Psalter which did no more than prefigure it.
3. And thirdly, because Our Lady's Psalter (or the Rosary made up of the Our Father and Hail Mary) is the direct work of the Most Blessed Trinity and was not made through a human instrument.

Our Lady's Psalter or Rosary is divided up into three parts of five decades each, for the following special reasons:

1. To honor the three Persons of the Most Blessed Trinity;
2. To honor the life, death and glory of Jesus Christ;
3. To imitate the Church Triumphant, to help the members of the Church Militant and the lessen the pains of the Church Suffering;
4. To imitate the three groups into which the Psalms are divided: a) The first being for the purgative life, b) the second for the illuminative life, c) and the third for the unitive life;
5. And, finally, to give us graces in abundance during our lifetime, peace at death, and glory in eternity.

[friendofJPII]

[quote name='Lil Red' post='1613743' date='Jul 31 2008, 12:06 AM']+J.M.J.+
yup, they should pray it at least every day! [/quote]


If you are trying to spin off my words, I never said the Rosary had to be prayed by everyone every day.

[i]If I remember correctly, it was also said, when we were given these new mysteries, that we did not need to use them, and could stick with just the "original" ones if we so chose[/i]

My purpose in bringing up JPII and the new mysteries was to point out that if he went through the trouble of giving us new mysteries, he must have thought that recitation of the Rosary was greatly needed during our times.

Edited July 31, 2008 by friendofJPII

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='friendofJPII' post='1613803' date='Jul 31 2008, 04:56 AM']If you are trying to spin off my words, I never said the Rosary had to be prayed by everyone every day.

[i]If I remember correctly, it was also said, when we were given these new mysteries, that we did not need to use them, and could stick with just the "original" ones if we so chose[/i]

My purpose in bringing up JPII and the new mysteries was to point out that if he went through the trouble of giving us new mysteries, he must have thought that recitation of the Rosary was greatly needed during our times.[/quote]
I don't think anyone here will say that the Rosary is not greatly needed in our times. Water is greatly needed in times of fire, but that does not mean everyone is called to be a firefighter.

No one is saying that you need not pray or that you need not strive for holiness, we're simply saying that there are different needs and different ways to fight for Jesus Christ.

Anyway, I did some logical reasoning yesterday evening on your thinking...now, objectively, of all the optional prayers that exist, daily Mass, Adoration, and Liturgy of the Hours are higher than the Rosary. The case could be made that Lectio Divina is also higher than the Rosary, but it's debatable. So, logically, you would require of us that we should go to daily Mass, daily Adoration, do Liturgy of the Hours, and pray a Rosary. Sounds like quite the regimen. The problem is that for some of us, God intends for us to do things that make it impossible for us to go to Mass every day of the week, and others do not have access to Adoration chapels, while still others cannot afford LOTH. The Rosary is a prayer for the poor, because it is simple and can be prayed on the fingers if nothing else, and those who are not poor do well to pray it, of course, but still, when a person is called to do works of mercy and prays the Divine Mercy Chaplet everyday and goes to Mass everyday and does the Liturgy of the Hourse everyday, are you going to be the one to tell that person that s/he needs to cut one of these devotions or his/her service through mercy in order to make room for the Rosary?

None of us disagree with encouraging all people to pray the Rosary, we just have a problem with the principle you assert that all [b]should[/b] pray the Rosary.

As for Liturgy of the Hours, it is highly encouraged for the laity and required of the clergy (it's a mortal sin for the clergy not to pray it, if I'm not mistaken). It is indeed higher than the Rosary.

[friendofJPII]

[i]Anyway, I did some logical reasoning yesterday evening on your thinking...now, objectively, of all the optional prayers that exist, daily Mass, Adoration, and Liturgy of the Hours are higher than the Rosary. The case could be made that Lectio Divina is also higher than the Rosary, but it's debatable. So, logically, you would require of us that we should go to daily Mass, daily Adoration, do Liturgy of the Hours, and pray a Rosary. Sounds like quite the regimen. The problem is that for some of us, God intends for us to do things that make it impossible for us to go to Mass every day of the week, and others do not have access to Adoration chapels, while still others cannot afford LOTH. The Rosary is a prayer for the poor, because it is simple and can be prayed on the fingers if nothing else, and those who are not poor do well to pray it, of course, but still, when a person is called to do works of mercy and prays the Divine Mercy Chaplet everyday and goes to Mass everyday and does the Liturgy of the Hourse everyday, are you going to be the one to tell that person that s/he needs to cut one of these devotions or his/her service through mercy in order to make room for the Rosary?[/i]

No, I never said that the Rosary had to be prayed every day. But yes, I think all these devotions can be incorporated into your prayer life to some degree (with modifications). For example, last night I was very distracted that I could not pray the entire Rosary with the nuns on EWTN....so I earnestly lifted my heart to God, prayed one decade, and offered my weariness to him. IMO, "I said the Rosary..." because I did the best I could at that moment. I go to adoration when I can, not as often as when I was at FUS, because the closest adoration chapel is a disance. I pray the LOTH once a month when I go to Catholic Underground. I try to live the message of the Divine Mercy and I pray it when I remember--- which is not everyday. I attend daily mass as my schedule allows, which isn't very often due to some serious family obligations. I suffer and offer my sufferings to him. I suppose that can be considered a devotion as well. Perhaps now you have a better understanding of what I mean when I say "play a role."

Edited July 31, 2008 by friendofJPII

[StColette]

Not to derail the conversation but... what about Lectio Divina? I haven't seen it mentioned yet so I don't know if anyone has a particular devotion to it or not.


I believe that the reason that the Rosary is so widely spread and encouraged is because it can be said no matter the state of one's life. People who cannot read can pray the Rosary, etc. I do not believe however that just because the Rosary is so easily accessible to everyone that is necessarily needed to be prayed by everyone. I mean if you have the ability to attend daily Mass, Adoration, pray the Liturgy of the Hours, pray Lectio Divina, etc. then I believe these options should be open to your use just as the Rosary is. What I mean by that is if you have access to many different devotions then you are given those different options for a reason. The Church encourages devotions of every kind, some more vocally than others, yes. And again, I believe that's probably because some are more accessible than others. Given that the persons involved in this discussion know how to read and probably have daily Mass or Adoration options (don't know for sure just guessing), I do not believe that they should be encouraged to pray the Rosary in a manner that portrays not praying the Rosary as something lacking in their spiritual life. As I said before, a person with devotion to Eucharistic Adoration could say the same toward someone who does not take advantage of Adoration, when it is possible for them to do so (each case is different). If not having a devotion to the Rosary, whether daily or whenever the mood strikes you, means that you are lacking something in your spiritual life, then I believe this must be equated to all devotions. If you don't have a devotion to LOTH then you are lacking something in your spiritual life, if you don't have a devotion to Divine Mercy Chaplet then you are lacking in your spiritual life, etc. Most of us do not have all the time in the day to sit around and do one devotion after the hour, so by friendofJPII's standards we would all be lacking in our spiritual lives. We cannot say that one devotion would not cause one to lack in their spiritual life while another would. A devotions purpose is to lead a person to holiness and in that sense they are all equal.

We are not obligated to pray the Rosary, which no one has said (just to clarify). It is a devotion. There are many devotions, some appeal to people's spirituality more than others. All devotions help one on the path to holiness, which is the main thing that we strive for and any devotion that gets us there is important, but again particular devotions are not necessary for salvation. They can help aid us in our path to holiness, but one particular devotion does not lead one to holiness better than the other. Holiness is reached by love of God and faithfulness to Him, not through one devotion or the other.

[friendofJPII]

.

[i]We are not obligated to pray the Rosary, which no one has said (just to clarify). It is a devotion. There are many devotions, some appeal to people's spirituality more than others. All devotions help one on the path to holiness, which is the main thing that we strive for and any devotion that gets us there is important, but again particular devotions are not necessary for salvation. They can help aid us in our path to holiness, but one particular devotion does not lead one to holiness better than the other. Holiness is reached by love of God and faithfulness to Him, not through one devotion or the other.
[/quote][/i]


True, but Marian devotion is the surest way to grow in holiness. The Rosary is the crown of Marian devotion. Given Mary's role in the Church and in our salvation, I do not understand how one could completly ignore [i]her prayer.[/i]

By that arguement, Protestants are not lacking anything when they omit prayers to Mary.

Edited July 31, 2008 by friendofJPII

[StColette]

[quote name='friendofJPII' post='1613873' date='Jul 31 2008, 10:11 AM']but Marian devotion is the surest way to grow in holiness.[/quote]

When and where has the Church taught this? I'm not being sarcastic. I'm asking honestly where the Church has taught this. My understanding is that the Church teaches that the surest way to grow in holiness is through the reception of the Sacraments and with a great stress on the reception of the Holy Eucharist.

[friendofJPII]

[quote name='StColette' post='1613876' date='Jul 31 2008, 09:16 AM']When and where has the Church taught this? I'm not being sarcastic. I'm asking honestly where the Church has taught this. My understanding is that the Church teaches that the surest way to grow in holiness is through the reception of the Sacraments and with a great stress on the reception of the Holy Eucharist.[/quote]


"To Jesus through Mary..." Totus Tous... The writings of St. Lous DeMontfort...JPII....It is common Catholic knowledge that if you want to grow closer to Our Lord, entrust yourself to Our Lady. And what better way to entrust yourself to her than by praying the prayer she asked us to pray.

Is the Rosary a requirement for salvation? no. Is exercise a requirement for life? No. Will it improve our overall functioning and health? yes!

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='friendofJPII' post='1613864' date='Jul 31 2008, 09:55 AM'][i]Anyway, I did some logical reasoning yesterday evening on your thinking...now, objectively, of all the optional prayers that exist, daily Mass, Adoration, and Liturgy of the Hours are higher than the Rosary. The case could be made that Lectio Divina is also higher than the Rosary, but it's debatable. So, logically, you would require of us that we should go to daily Mass, daily Adoration, do Liturgy of the Hours, and pray a Rosary. Sounds like quite the regimen. The problem is that for some of us, God intends for us to do things that make it impossible for us to go to Mass every day of the week, and others do not have access to Adoration chapels, while still others cannot afford LOTH. The Rosary is a prayer for the poor, because it is simple and can be prayed on the fingers if nothing else, and those who are not poor do well to pray it, of course, but still, when a person is called to do works of mercy and prays the Divine Mercy Chaplet everyday and goes to Mass everyday and does the Liturgy of the Hourse everyday, are you going to be the one to tell that person that s/he needs to cut one of these devotions or his/her service through mercy in order to make room for the Rosary?[/i]

No, I never said that the Rosary had to be prayed every day. But yes, I think all these devotions can be incorporated into your prayer life to some degree (with modifications). For example, last night I was very distracted that I could not pray the entire Rosary with the nuns on EWTN....so I earnestly lifted my heart to God, prayed one decade, and offered my weariness to him. IMO, "I said the Rosary..." because I did the best I could at that moment. I go to adoration when I can, not as often as when I was at FUS, because the closest adoration chapel is a disance. I pray the LOTH once a month when I go to Catholic Underground. I try to live the message of the Divine Mercy and I pray it when I remember--- which is not everyday. I attend daily mass as my schedule allows, which isn't very often due to some serious family obligations. I suffer and offer my sufferings to him. I suppose that can be considered a devotion as well. Perhaps now you have a better understanding of what I mean when I say "play a role."[/quote]

Yes, and you see, from your description, the Rosary makes a wonderful devotion that fits your lifestyle. The problem I had is that some of us have daily Mass and Adoration readily available to us, but that might be all we can really get in before heading off to work (if we can get it in at all, mind you), and then coming home to dishes, laundry, and pregnant wives with hip pain. Now, given that we make an effort to have a viable spiritual life, would you prefer that I give up Mass or Adoration to pray the Rosary, or should I give up my duties as a husband or as a youth minister?

My point is just that different people are in different places spiritually and have different obligations that impact their spiritual lives. Should all people be open to pray the Rosary? Absolutely, but that doesn't mean that everyone needs to feel this pressing obligation to pray the Rosary or be told that they need to make time for it when they already struggle making time for what they do pray, especially when those prayers are objectively higher than the Rosary.

StColette has been talking to me at home and I think she's fighting with you more than anything because there are a lot of scrupulous people on PM...and when you go pressing the importance of the Rosary so strongly, you give those poor people the impression that unless they pray the Rosary, they can't get to heaven and have no real hope. Do you have any idea how many poor scrupulants there are at FUS right now who hear from each and every person all these devotions that certain individuals hold very highly...and those scrupulants feel obliged to pray everything under the sun? One person insists on the importance of the Divine Mercy Chaplet, another on the Rosary, another on daily Mass, another on daily Adoration, still another on attending Lord's Day, others on fasting 2 or 3 times a week, and others on praise and worship, and there's a lot of pressure in all directions. This is why religious orders with different spiritualities don't all live together...you put Franciscans with Franciscans, Benedictines with Benedictines...they are called to different things, and when you have 20 different devotions all being promoted, some more radically than others (Brother Adam was told by one extreme individual he couldn't get to heaven unless he was Consecrated to the Virgin Mary, yet another great yet optional devotion), some people will try to base their lives on doing far too much with prayer and end up tiring themselves out and growing an aversion to prayer in general. By overextending themselves (often out of scruples) and trying to make themselves as holy as possible, they start to fall into a sort of pride and eventually into acedia; they get lax about their spiritual devotions and moreover they start feeling as if they're damned for not saying this or that prayer.

That is precisely why there's such an argument going on here. StColette is trying to make it clear to readers that the Rosary is NOT necessary for salvation and is NOT an obligation of our faith, although it is indeed highly encouraged.

As for the quickest and safest way to heaven, it's not the Rosary, it's the Eucharist, and you can quote St. Pius X on that.

[StColette]

[quote name='friendofJPII' post='1613880' date='Jul 31 2008, 10:22 AM']"To Jesus through Mary..." Totus Tous... The writings of St. Lous DeMontfort...JPII....It is common Catholic knowledge that if you want to grow closer to Our Lord, entrust yourself to Our Lady. And what better way to entrust yourself to her than by praying the prayer she asked us to pray.[/quote]

Yes, I know of all these instances, but nowhere does any of these say the surest way to holiness is through Marian devotion. The surest way to holiness is through the Sacraments, because without the Sacraments we are nothing, no amount of devotions can make up or provide what the Sacraments provide us.

[friendofJPII]

[quote name='StColette' post='1613883' date='Jul 31 2008, 09:28 AM']Yes, I know of all these instances, but nowhere does any of these say the surest way to holiness is through Marian devotion. The surest way to holiness is through the Sacraments, because without the Sacraments we are nothing, no amount of devotions can make up or provide what the Sacraments provide us.[/quote]


Marian devotion and the Eucharist go hand in hand. I honestly don't see the either/or issue. Whereever Jesus is (in the Eucharist) there is Our Lady! I do believe Marian devotion is an important component to having a complete spirtuality.

That being said, Michah, I understand firsthand what it feels like to suffer from scrupolisty and have countless devotions pushed on you at FUS, and how difficult it is to dicern what prayers to pray and how much to pray.

Edited July 31, 2008 by friendofJPII

[StColette]

[quote name='friendofJPII' post='1613912' date='Jul 31 2008, 11:16 AM']Marian devotion and the Eucharist go hand in hand. I honestly don't see the either/or issue. Whereever Jesus is (in the Eucharist) there is Our Lady! I do believe Marian devotion is an important component to having a complete spirtuality.[/quote]

Marian devotion may compliment the Eucharist, but it is still not a Sacrament and one does not have to have a Marian devotion in order to benefit from the Sacraments. And a person does not have to have a Marian devotion in order to receive the Sacraments. The argument here is that the surest way to holiness is through the Sacraments and not necessarily through the things that compliment the Sacraments.