Lil Red Posted July 30, 2008 Share Posted July 30, 2008 +J.M.J.+ [quote name='friendofJPII' post='1612876' date='Jul 30 2008, 11:56 AM']Still, it is rather difficult for most lay people to pray because the prayers must be said at structured times.[/quote] i am pretty sure lay people do not have to pray it at the exact times (i remember, because i asked here before). you should just say morning prayer in the morning and not night; evening prayer in the evening and not morning; night prayer at night and not morning; etc. [quote name='StColette' post='1612930' date='Jul 30 2008, 12:16 PM']You may not have said that it is an obligatory prayer, but your insistence that everyone should pray the Rosary or they are severely lacking something in their spirituality makes it sound as if you are saying it's obligatory.[/quote] *ding, ding, ding* We have a winner! [quote name='friendofJPII' post='1612958' date='Jul 30 2008, 12:28 PM']Agreed. But not everyone has access to daily mass, or even Sunday mass for that matter. (Many rural parishes do not have a priest and simply have a communion service on Sunday). The Rosary can be said by everyone anywhere.[/quote] so you are saying it is better to pray the Rosary than go to Mass? uh, no. it's not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StColette Posted July 30, 2008 Share Posted July 30, 2008 [quote name='Lil Red' post='1613188' date='Jul 30 2008, 04:36 PM']+J.M.J.+ i am pretty sure lay people do not have to pray it at the exact times (i remember, because i asked here before). you should just say morning prayer in the morning and not night; evening prayer in the evening and not morning; night prayer at night and not morning; etc.[/quote] That's what Fr. Dominic instructed us to do. If we aren't able to pray all the different parts of the Liturgy of the Hours then we should focus on morning and night prayer. He said just as long as you are praying morning prayer anytime other than at night and night prayer other than in the morning or day then you are doing fine. He has written several books and publications on the Liturgy of the Hours so I trust his judgment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
friendofJPII Posted July 30, 2008 Author Share Posted July 30, 2008 (edited) [i]I'm glad you encourage people to pray the Rosary, I do as well. But I do believe that when you said "However, I believe someone who refuses to pray the Rosary (or form of it) for whatever reason is lacking something substantial in their prayer life." it was definitely an incorrect statement to make. You do not have access to the details of their prayer life and your personal preference to the Rosary does not allow you to judge what you see as lacking in someone else's spiritual life.[/i] As I have said before, there is an objective and subjective dimension to this question. However, generally speaking, yes, someone who does not pray the Rosary somewhat regularly does have something lacking in their prayer life. Saints are not born, they are made. I highly doubt MT would have been MT or JP II would have been JP II without the grace they obtained from praying it. The fact that you cannot come up with a modern saint who did not have a devotion to the Rosary further illustrates the fact that it greatly aids the path to holiness. As does Divine Mercy (although it is not as well known, sadly). As does the Mass (and I never said it is better to pray the Rosary than go to mass, it is just that daily mass is not feasible for everyone). And as I have also stated, I have yet to meet someone who is devoted to DM, mass, adoration, is living the teachings of the Church and is striving for holiness that does not also have a devotion to the Rosary. They all go together because they are all spiritual powerhouses. Honestly, I do not have enough experience with LOTH to engage in more thorough discussion of it, but thank you for bringing it to my attention. Edited July 30, 2008 by friendofJPII Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StColette Posted July 30, 2008 Share Posted July 30, 2008 [quote name='friendofJPII' post='1613205' date='Jul 30 2008, 04:58 PM']As I have said before, there is an objective and subjective dimension to this question. However, generally speaking, yes, someone who does not pray the Rosary somewhat regularly does have something lacking in their prayer life.[/quote] Again this is your personal opinion and not the opinion of the Church. No matter if Mary, the Pope, and many Saints have called for it to be recited it does not mean that something is lacking in their prayer life. If that were true then someone who prays the Rosary but does not pray the Divine Mercy Chaplet would be lacking in their prayer life. We can go back and forth on this. Prayer is not about quantity but about quality. The quality of the DMC is the same as the quality of the Rosary when said devoutly, because both help lead a person to holiness. [quote]Saints are not born, they are made. I highly doubt MT would have been MT or JP II would have been JP II without the grace they obtained from praying it.[/quote] That's just an assumption [quote]The fact that you cannot come up with a modern saint who did not have a devotion to the Rosary further illustrates the fact that it greatly aids the path to holiness.[/quote] As I told you, I would ask my husband this because my knowledge of a multitude of modern day Saints is very limited. I would point out that it doesn't necessary illustrate that it aids greatly to the path of holiness, I think it does, because this would only focus on those Saints that the Church has recognized through canonization. All those who are in Heaven are Saints whether they are canonized or not and we can't possibly know the spirituality of ever single person in Heaven that has ever lived. That would be an interesting poll though lol [quote]And as I have also stated, I have yet to meet someone who is devoted to DM, mass, adoration, is living the teachings of the Church and is striving for holiness that does not also have a devotion to the Rosary. . [/quote] Allow me to introduce you to my husband and some of my friends and from what I've seen a few of the people involved in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
friendofJPII Posted July 30, 2008 Author Share Posted July 30, 2008 (edited) [i]Again this is your personal opinion and not the opinion of the Church. No matter if Mary, the Pope, and many Saints have called for it to be recited it does not mean that something is lacking in their prayer life. [/i] Can we just ignore the fact that Mary, the Mother of God, the Popes, and the Saints have asked that the Rosary be prayed? Pope John Paul II even went through the trouble of creating new mysteries. We are supposed to take the advice the Holy Father gives us seriously. You are correct that I cannot judge of individual souls, but I don't think I'm being judgemental when I say the Rosary should play [i]a role [/i]in every mature Catholic's prayer life. And when I say "a role" I do not nec. mean that they have to pray it daily. I feel it should be held in high regard and prayed according to the inspirations of the Holy Spirit and one's state in life. . Edited July 30, 2008 by friendofJPII Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted July 30, 2008 Share Posted July 30, 2008 [quote name='friendofJPII' post='1613239' date='Jul 30 2008, 03:40 PM']And when I say "a role" I do not nec. mean that they have to pray it daily.[/quote] +J.M.J.+ that is not what you've been saying this entire thread. edit: oops, i agree you haven't said that everyone must pray it daily, but from your comments, it sure sounds like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StColette Posted July 30, 2008 Share Posted July 30, 2008 [quote name='friendofJPII' post='1613239' date='Jul 30 2008, 05:40 PM']Can we just ignore the fact that Mary, the Mother of God, the Popes, and the Saints have asked that the Rosary be prayed?[/quote] Not being devoted to the Rosary does not mean that we are ignoring Mary, the Popes, or the Saints. There have been many other devotions that have been called for just as strongly as the Rosary. And yes I know not everyone may have access to them, but in the average life of a person in American, Europe, etc. they are quite capable of getting access to them. I'm not referring to those who are in situations where they can't attend Mass, daily Mass, read, or go to Adoration. I'm speaking about the average person who, I'm pretty positive, has access to at least one of these. These options could help that person grow in holiness and nuture them in a way that the Rosary may not for their specific spiritual needs. Now for those who don't have access to these things then the Rosary is probably the best thing for them to pray in order to help lead them to holiness. [quote]Pope John Paul II even went through the trouble of creating new mysteries. We are supposed to take the advice the Holy Father gives us seriously.[/quote] Yes, we should take the advice of the Holy Father but in this situation the Holy Father is not speaking in a matter that is infallible. The same argument is used in discussion about the Iraq War and the Death Penalty. Those are the personal opinions of the Holy Father and do not have to be agreed with by the faithful. [quote]You are correct that I cannot judge of individual souls, but I don't think I'm being judgemental when I say the Rosary should play [i]a role [/i]in every mature Catholic's prayer life.[/quote] And I could say that Adoration or Liturgy of the Hours should play a role in the mature Catholic's prayer life, especially if they have access to them. [quote]I feel it should be held in high regard and prayed according to the inspirations of the Holy Spirit and one's state in life.[/quote] Which for some people the inspiration of the Holy Spirit or the state of one's life may not ever call them to pray the Rosary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted July 30, 2008 Share Posted July 30, 2008 [quote name='StColette' post='1613292' date='Jul 30 2008, 05:06 PM']And I could say that Adoration or Liturgy of the Hours should play a role in the mature Catholic's prayer life, especially if they have access to them.[/quote] +J.M.J.+ moreso because both of these are 'higher' than the Rosary. Especially LOTH, which is second only to the Mass. not that i'm saying everyone should pray LOTH because it isn't necessarily everyone's cuppa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
friendofJPII Posted July 30, 2008 Author Share Posted July 30, 2008 (edited) [i]Yes, we should take the advice of the Holy Father but in this situation the Holy Father is not speaking in a matter that is infallible. The same argument is used in discussion about the Iraq War and the Death Penalty. Those are the personal opinions of the Holy Father and do not have to be agreed with by the faithful.[/i] Woooohhh...wait a minute....there is a major distinction when the Pope speaks about issues in politics and when he speaks on matters of faith. One may differ with the Pope on issues surrounding the implementation of the Iraq war or illegal immigration, (the Church has some specific guidelines regarding the Death Panalty, however) but when he gives us new mysteries of Rosary to pray we should take that seriously. After all, if you can't trust the Pope on matters of faith and modes of prayer, what can you trust him on?!! Edited July 30, 2008 by friendofJPII Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
friendofJPII Posted July 30, 2008 Author Share Posted July 30, 2008 I also think there needs to be a distinction between the LOTH and the Rosary. I'm not sure it is acurate to rate the LOTH "as second" (I really dislike this idea of rating prayers) because it is actually an extension of the mass-- it is a public liturgical prayer. The Rosary is a private devotion as is the Divine Mercy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeresaBenedicta Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 [quote name='friendofJPII' post='1613300' date='Jul 30 2008, 08:22 PM'][i]Yes, we should take the advice of the Holy Father but in this situation the Holy Father is not speaking in a matter that is infallible. The same argument is used in discussion about the Iraq War and the Death Penalty. Those are the personal opinions of the Holy Father and do not have to be agreed with by the faithful.[/i] Woooohhh...wait a minute....there is a major distinction when the Pope speaks about issues in politics and when he speaks on matters of faith. One may differ with the Pope on issues surrounding the implementation of the Iraq war or illegal immigration, (the Church has some specific guidelines regarding the Death Panalty, however) but when he gives us new mysteries of Rosary to pray we should take that seriously. After all, if you can't trust the Pope on matters of faith and modes of prayer, what can you trust him on?!![/quote] When speaking about the Rosary, the Pope is not speaking [i]ex cathedra[/i]. It is not binding. Therefore, when he speaks about the Rosary, it [i]is[/i] the same when he's speaking about politics. Or about the DMC or the angelus or any other sort of prayer or devotion. There are many devotions that the faithful are encouraged to take part in. The rosary certainly IS a great source of grace and it is a wonderful devotion. But that's what it is... a devotion. People have different devotions that fit with their own spiritualities. It's important that people recognize which devotions they are called to, so that they may grow in holiness. The rosary is not always the tool for each individual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 [quote name='friendofJPII' post='1613309' date='Jul 30 2008, 05:41 PM'](I really dislike this idea of rating prayers)[/quote] +J.M.J.+ you kinda started that, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
friendofJPII Posted July 31, 2008 Author Share Posted July 31, 2008 (edited) It can get [i][b]really[/[/b]i] confusing trying to determine what is "binding" and what is not. Theologians often disagree. The Church does spell everything out for us, but rather gives us a framework of common sense by which we can discern what is good, holy, right, and just. Given that the Rosary has been such a strong prayer of the Church for centuries, if the holy Pontiff speaks about it, I think we can trust that it is coming from the Lord. After all, these words are not simply coming from Pope Benedict... Pope John Paul II, but countless Popes before him. His words are backed up w/ tradition. I also highly doubt that St. Faustina, (in fact I would say it is implausible!) would have been declared a Saint by the Church if the Divine Mercy apparitions were not authentic. Her life was dedicated to the Divine Mercy. Here are some quotes from popes and saints regarding the Rosary: "Among all the devotions approved by the Church none has been so favored by so many miracles as the devotion of the Most Holy Rosary" (Pope Pius IX). "Say the Rosary every day to obtain peace for the world" (Our Lady of Fátima). "There is no surer means of calling down God's blessings upon the family . . . than the daily recitation of the Rosary" (Pope Pius XII). "We do not hesitate to affirm again publicly that we put great confidence in the Holy Rosary for the healing of evils of our times" (Pope Pius XII). "No one can live continually in sin and continue to say the Rosary: either they will give up sin or they will give up the Rosary" (Bishop Hugh Doyle). "The Rosary is a magnificent and universal prayer for the needs of the Church, the nations and the entire world" (Pope John XXIII). "The Rosary is the compendium of the entire Gospel" (Pope Paul VI quoting Pope Pius XII). "Meditation on the mysteries of the Rosary . . . can be an excellent preparation for the celebration of those same mysteries in the liturgical actions [i.e. the Mass] and can also become a continuing echo thereof" (Pope Paul VI). "My impression is that the Rosary is of the greatest value not only according to the words of Our Lady at Fátima, but according to the effects of the Rosary one sees throughout history. My impression is that Our Lady wanted to give ordinary people, who might not know how to pray, this simple method of getting closer to God" (Sister Lucia, one of the seers of Fátima). "How beautiful is the family that recites the Rosary every evening" (Pope John Paul II). Pope John Paul II has called the Rosary his "favorite prayer," after the Mass and the Liturgy of the Hours. St. Louis de Montfort warns us against both the ignorant and scholars who regard the Rosary as something of little importance..."the Rosary is a priceless treasure inspired by God." Edited July 31, 2008 by friendofJPII Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 +J.M.J.+ [quote name='friendofJPII' post='1613344' date='Jul 30 2008, 06:14 PM']It can get [i][b]really[/[/b]i] confusing trying to determine what is "binding" and what is not.[/quote] totally agreed!! [quote name='friendofJPII' post='1613344' date='Jul 30 2008, 06:14 PM']Pope John Paul II has called the Rosary his "favorite prayer," after the Mass and the [b]Liturgy of the Hours.[/b][/quote] emphasis my own. so, i'm right! everyone should pray the LOTH! sorry, couldn't resist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
friendofJPII Posted July 31, 2008 Author Share Posted July 31, 2008 so, i'm right! everyone should pray the LOTH! sorry, couldn't resist. [/quote] yes, the LOTH should be highly regarded and [i]play a role[/i] in one's prayer life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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