The Rosary

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Lil Red' post='1611459' date='Jul 29 2008, 04:36 PM']me too! actually, all the mysteries I try to see through the eyes of Mary.[/quote]
I try to do that, but I find it easiest with the Joyful Mysteries. All the more reason to keep trying, I suppose.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Archaeology cat' post='1611471' date='Jul 29 2008, 09:54 AM']I try to do that, but I find it easiest with the Joyful Mysteries. All the more reason to keep trying, I suppose. [/quote]
+J.M.J.+
yup yup.

[johnnydigit]

[quote name='Archaeology cat' post='1611471' date='Jul 29 2008, 09:54 AM']I try to do that, but I find it easiest with the Joyful Mysteries. All the more reason to keep trying, I suppose. [/quote]

now that i think about it, when seeing it through the eyes of Blessed Mary it's like i *become* the words of the Magnificat. i imagine looking with eyes up towards God with my heart about to burst and Elizabeth eagerly listening at her feet, "My soul magnifies the greatness of God!"

[img]http://www.catholicqanda.com/GLORY4B.jpg[/img]

[StColette]

[quote name='Lil Red' post='1611459' date='Jul 29 2008, 11:36 AM'][url="http://www.catholictradition.org/Mary/7sorrows.htm"]Seven Sorrows[/url]
[url="http://www.shrinesf.org/rosary.htm#joys"]Seven Joys[/url]
[url="http://www.catholictradition.org/Mary/czesto.htm"]Our Lady of Czestochowa[/url]
[url="http://www.catholicdoors.com/prayers/chaplets/chap47.htm"]Our Lady, Star of the Sea[/url]
[url="http://www.ewtn.com/Devotionals/novena/immaculate.htm"]Immaculate Conception[/url]
[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07168a.htm"]Immaculate Heart of Mary[/url]
[url="http://prayers.viarosa.com/VirtuesChaplet.html"]Ten Evangelical Virtues of the Virgin Mary[/url]
they are all prayers, novenas or chaplets. [/quote]

Thank you Red

Red is correct. All the ones that I listed above are all prayers either novenas or chaplets not merely titles.

[friendofJPII]

[quote name='StColette' post='1611440' date='Jul 29 2008, 10:05 AM']One does not have to pray the Rosary to pray to Mary for her intercession. Now, most Catholics that I know have some type of devotion to Mary. Many of them speak to her very openly, not in the form of structured prayer and they feel that this form of prayer is more beneficial to them because they feel that they are getting their intentions across in a more sufficient way. Even a single Hail Mary is very pleasing to Our Lady if said with a devoted heart. Now while Mary is the mediatrix of all Graces, those graces still come directly from God and first must come from Him and then to her. If there is a truly devoted soul, who does not pray the Rosary, but prays in other forms to Mary for her intercession God isn't going to keep graces from that person. God is not legalistic and does not have a list of prayer requirements that must be meet before He will give you graces. He requires that we live good and faithful lives and this can be done without praying the Rosary and was done so for generations before the Rosary was given to us.[/quote]

I know many Catholics who do not have a deep devotion to Mary. I'm not arguing that the Rosary is necessary for salvation, but it is [i]extremely [/i] helpful. Someone can subsist in life without eating fruits and vegetables, but no one would argue the fact that their bodies will not be as healthy as if they did. I totally agree with you that God is not legalistic, and that people are called to different devotions and different levels of devotion, but the Rosary [b]is [/b]a tremendous gift to us, from Mary herself, and I think he wants us to use that gift, esp. since the Rosary is such a powerful weapon against the enemy, who is rampant right now.

Before the official Rosary was given us, there were other, simpler versions of it. So in that sense, people before the Rosary still prayed the Rosary.

Do you know of any modern-day saint (post-Rosary) who did not pray the Rosary? Mother Teresa prayed it constantly, she had the ability to pray it and still engage in every day tasks/conversation.

Edited July 29, 2008 by friendofJPII

[StColette]

[quote name='friendofJPII' post='1611547' date='Jul 29 2008, 01:33 PM']I know many Catholics who do not have a deep devotion to Mary. I'm not arguing that the Rosary is necessary for salvation, but it is [i]extremely [/i] helpful. Someone can subsist in life without eating fruits and vegetables, but no one would argue the fact that their bodies will not be as healthy as if they did. I totally agree with you that God is not legalistic, and that people are called to different devotions and different levels of devotion, but the Rosary [b]is [/b]a tremendous gift to us, from Mary herself, and I think he wants us to use that gift, esp. since the Rosary is such a powerful weapon against the enemy, who is rampant right now.[/quote]

Again, all of this can be said for quite a number of other devotions. All devotions are a tremendous gift to us, no matter what source gave them to us rather it be the Lord, Himself, or His Mother and all of them are powerful weapons against the enemy, most any devoutly said prayer is a great tool against evil. I mean for example, the Lord gave us the Our Father in the New Testament so that we would know how to pray and said that we should pray it. Now, because this came from God directly does it make it more important than the Rosary, which came from Our Lady, as special and wonderful as she is she isn't God.

[quote]Before the official Rosary was given us, there were other, simpler versions of it. So in that sense, people before the Rosary still prayed the Rosary.[/quote]

The early form the Rosary that I believe you are speaking of did not have the Mary Psalter (Hail Mary) attached to it. An older form of a type of Rosary was said with the recitation of all 150 Psalms. Believe me, I know the History and the background for the development of the Rosary and the older forms of the Rosary which were in existence before Our Lady appeared to St. Dominic. If you look in the Defense Directory you will find that I wrote an entire 13 to 15 page tract on the very subject.

[quote]Do you know of any modern-day saint (post-Rosary) who did not pray the Rosary? Mother Teresa prayed it constantly, she had the ability to pray it and still engage in every day tasks/conversation.[/quote]

I haven't studied Saints as extensively as my husband, he was a Catechetics Major and I was a Theology Major, but I can ask him if he knows of any. Sadly my knowledge of Saints isn't that great, my passion is more toward Scripture and Biblical exegesis as well as Mariology.

Bl. Teresa of Calcutta is an amazing person but I would say far more gifted than your average run of the mill person as was St Padre Pio who said hundreds of Rosaries a day while holding a conversation at the same time. This is definitely a gift from God that was given to each of them, but it is not necessarily bestowed upon all who pray the Rosary. Now, as amazing as these Saints are I don't know how their devotion of the Rosary helps support the argument that all Catholics should pray the Rosary. St. Padre Pio also had great devotion to Liturgy of the Hours as well as Eucharistic Adoration. He often biolocated keeping himself in the Eucharistic Adoration chapel and at the same time being else where taking care of priestly duties. Eye witnesses can attest to this.

I believe what worries me most about your position on the Rosary is that you are coming across as saying that if you don't pray the Rosary even once in a blue moon then you are somehow less devoted, faithful, or Catholic than those who do. I may be reading into your posts but with comments like the ones you have made make you sound like that's what you are getting at.

[TeresaBenedicta]

I don't pray the rosary very often, I admit. At school I would pray it once or twice a week with two different groups. When I first got home I tried to implement a daily rosary, and I did fairly well with that, going just over a month. But then I stopped and I think I've prayed one rosary in the past two months.

When I first converted, I said that I didn't have a very deep devotion to the Blessed Mother and that I probably never would. But really, I honestly think that the reason that some people do not have a devotion to the Blessed Mother is because they don't know her. They don't know about her and her role in our salvation.

That's the way it's been with me. When I went to school, I joined a group on campus called [i]Militia Immaculata[/i]. I knew it was a Marian group and I wasn't too hot on that, but it was one of the only fellowship groups that fit into my schedule. So, I figured I'd give it a shot anyways. I can't even begin to explain how much I learned and grew spiritually from that group. The seminarians that lead the group (it's a mixture of college students and seminarians) taught us so much about the Blessed Mother and showed us an example of true devotion to her.

Needless to say, I have grown very much in my devotion to Mary and entrust to her the most important things in my life. I have twice consecrated very important situations into her care, and I have not been let down.

The relationship I have with Mary is very simple and it does not require many words. Most of the time it is just in knowing that she is my mother and that she's looking after me, the way any mother would. In dire situations, I turn to her specifically and she answers me.

So, I don't pray the rosary... but I do have a healthy relationship with the Blessed Mother and a deep devotion to her.

[friendofJPII]

[i]
I believe what worries me most about your position on the Rosary is that you are coming across as saying that if you don't pray the Rosary even once in a blue moon then you are somehow less devoted, faithful, or Catholic than those who do. I may be reading into your posts but with comments like the ones you have made make you sound like that's what you are getting at.[/i]

This debate is similiar to the homosexuality debate because there is both a subjective and objective demension to this discussion. Objectively, the Rosary is a tremendous source of grace, a weapon against Saint, a mediation on the life Christ. Subjectively, not every person is ready for it immediately. However, if we look at religous orders, almost all the orders that are Orthodox pray the Rosary daily, while the liberal ones usually discourage it. They might look up to Mary as a "strong woman" in Scripture, but that's about it. I do believe that a person who prays the Rosary fervently, with a contrite heart, (not just to say it) will advance in the spirtual life rather quickly.

[StColette]

[quote name='friendofJPII' post='1611594' date='Jul 29 2008, 02:46 PM']Objectively, the Rosary is a tremendous source of grace, a weapon against Saint, a mediation on the life Christ.[/quote]
Again, many devotions are a source of grace and a weapon against Satan. The Divine Mercy Chaplet, Seven Sorrows of Mary, Seven Joys of Mary, are all reflections on the life of Christ and can be just as beneficial to one's spiritual life as the Rosary because each person spiritual development and path is different. For instance, my husband and I do not pray the same. He's more systematic, I guess you could say, than I am. He likes things a little more structured then what I do.

[quote]Subjectively, not every person is ready for it immediately.[/quote]

I don't believe it is a matter of being ready for it as more of being called toward it. For example, we are all called to adore the Eucharist because well the Eucharist is Christ present to us. But not everyone feels the call to go to Adoration on a regular basis nor do they have access to Eucharistic Adoration. Others may feel a specific call from God to spend their time in prayer before the Most Holy Eucharist. This is where God has lead them that they may grow closer to Him.

[quote]However, if we look at religous orders, almost all the orders that are Orthodox pray the Rosary daily, while the liberal ones usually discourage it. They might look up to Mary as a "strong woman" in Scripture, but that's about it. I do believe that a person who prays the Rosary fervently, with a contrite heart, (not just to say it) will advance in the spiritual life rather quickly.[/quote]

Again, I've known many people who were quite Orthodox and did not have a devotion to the Rosary. Many of them are Franciscan students and very close friends of mine. Many of them do have devotions to Divine Mercy, Eucharistic Adoration, or Daily Mass. A person's Orthodoxy does not hinge upon how many devotions they have or what devotions they have but their love and devotion to God which can be fulfilled in many different ways.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

The Rosary is a very powerful prayer, but not necessary for heaven, nor necessary for holiness.

As for effectiveness, grace is received according to the openness of the recipient (quidquid recipiuntur recipiuntur secundum modo recipientis - whatever is received is received according to the mode of the recipient). Now, I would say that for most of us, we are not entirely open to grace because we still have some inclination toward sin, and therefore, while the Rosary is meant for us objectively, we cannot subjectively participate fully. There are others, however, who cannot pray the Rosary due to no fault of their own, such as brain damage (and therefore the Rosary is not meant for them, because God does not make us incapable of doing the things He calls us to).

There are still others, though, who do not pray the Rosary and have not (overall) been called to do so. The Eastern Rite Catholics don't generally make a practice of praying the Rosary, as it is a Western Tradition. There is absolutely no reason to tell one of them that they'd better pray the Rosary or they won't be as holy as they could get through their own spirituality.

What it comes down to is spirituality. Now, I'm not going to discourage anyone from the praying the Rosary; I highly recommend it and am trying to get back into the habit of it myself, but I'm also not going to go telling people that they absolutely must pray the Rosary. There are different spiritualities, and there needn't be any more explanation than that. We don't all need to be doing the same thing. The angels understand that; some are lower, others higher, but none of them try to belong to a different choir. The Seraphim and Cherubim don't tell the Principalities and Archangels that they should be spending all their "time" in perpetual adoration of their Lord and not going about their busy work. The Principalities and Archangels are busy with other things, but they were made according to their purpose, and do not have the same role or needs as the higher angels. Some saints spend hours in front of the Blessed Sacrament, others went to daily Mass, and still others went to Mass once a week, but spend their days in spiritual communion with God. They, perhaps, could only do that and nothing more, and they should not be told that they should have done more.

I'm not saying that you would tell them to do more, of course, but I hope you see my point.

[friendofJPII]

[i]I don't believe it is a matter of being ready for it as more of being called toward it. For example, we are all called to adore the Eucharist because well the Eucharist is Christ present to us. But not everyone feels the call to go to Adoration on a regular basis nor do they have access to Eucharistic Adoration. Others may feel a specific call from God to spend their time in prayer before the Most Holy Eucharist. This is where God has lead them that they may grow closer to Him. [/i]

I think it is a little of both. I don't think Mary would mind "taking a back seat" for a time in the case of Protestant who has been told all his life that prayers to Mary = idolotry. I'm sure she would rather see him enter the Church in peace, and if he wasn't confortable with praying to her immediately due to his upbringing she would understand. That being said, devotion to Mary and devotion to Christ go hand in hand. THe closer we grow to her, the closer we grow to him, and the more we draw to him, the more he will give us the aid of his Mother. I believe that if someone is close to Mary, she will lead them to pray the Rosary. That only makes sense. If someone draws close to you, you naturally want to give them the greatest gifts.

[i]Again, I've known many people who were quite Orthodox and did not have a devotion to the Rosary. Many of them are Franciscan students and very close friends of mine. Many of them do have devotions to Divine Mercy, Eucharistic Adoration, or Daily Mass. A person's Orthodoxy does not hinge upon how many devotions they have or what devotions they have but their love and devotion to God which can be fulfilled in many different ways.
[/quote][/i]
That's true, but I'm sure these people prayed the Rosary occasionaly. I have yet to meet someone who had devotion to the Eucharist, adoration, mass, and Divine Mercy, that did not also have a strong devotion to Mary and the Rosary (although they may not pray it daily). It kinda all goes together.

Edited July 29, 2008 by friendofJPII

[friendofJPII]

Raphel,

you can't deny however that there are some people who can pray the Rosary, who are called to pray the Rosary, who just don't want to, because they don't like it because it is a long prayer and requires discipline. I think it is easy to say we are "not called" to do things we don't want to do. I know, personally, that my spirtual life did not really take off until I started praying the Rosary. --jpii

[Lil Red]

[quote name='friendofJPII' post='1611773' date='Jul 29 2008, 02:18 PM']Raphel,

you can't deny however that there are some people who can pray the Rosary, who are called to pray the Rosary, who just don't want to, because they don't like it because it is a long prayer and requires discipline.[/quote]
+J.M.J.+
say what? who are these people you know? lol. i know no one like that. maybe that is your experience with either yourself or your friends, but i don't know anyone like that. maybe i don't travel in the same kind of circles, lol.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='StColette' post='1611507' date='Jul 29 2008, 10:55 AM']Thank you Red

Red is correct. All the ones that I listed above are all prayers either novenas or chaplets not merely titles.[/quote]
+J.M.J.+
no problem

i haven't seen friendofjpii respond to this yet, though.

[salterrae]

JM + JT

The Rosary, along with the story of Fatima, is actually what got me to take my faith seriously. I used to pray it every nite right before falling asleep, but of course not very devoutly being the "baby"-Catholic I was.

Eventually I gave it up altogether. It takes too much effort for me to make each Hail Mary count. And when I learned that I can meditate on something else while the prayers spill out I would end up either falling asleep, rushing to finish, or thinking about something else.

I'm still looking for that way to honor Our Lady that suits me best. I think my favorite title of hers is Queen of Heaven. Any ideas?