lilac_angel Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 (edited) [quote name='friendofJPII' post='1614319' date='Jul 31 2008, 04:18 PM']I don't see the big conflict here. I feel like we debating Eucharist vs. Marian devotion, which is so silly. The two are intertwined because the two hearts are intertwined! Where Jesus is, there is Mary. The Sacraments are the quickest way to holiness (that along with a humble, contrite heart) [b]but praying the Rosary can make us more disposed to recieve the Sacraments.[/b][/quote] All I said was that various saints had various ideas of which devotion, be it prayer in front of the blessed sacrament or the Rosary, was the best, and that they all were right. So no real debate coming from me. We all know that the Eucharist as a Sacrament supercedes all of our devotions, but I didn't think that's what anyone was debating against. Yes, what I bolded above is an idea that I openly agreed with (and stated, if in not the exact words) in this thread Edited July 31, 2008 by lilac_angel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
friendofJPII Posted August 1, 2008 Author Share Posted August 1, 2008 (edited) [quote name='TeresaBenedicta' post='1614325' date='Jul 31 2008, 04:22 PM']I think the biggest disagreement I have is that you say praying the Rosary is the ultimate Marian devotion. I disagree. I think that Marian devotion can be expressed in a multitude of different ways, each fitting to the spirituality of every individual.[/quote] I think it is. The other prayers to Mary are very beautiful, but her most notable prayer is the Rosary. Most statues of Mary depict her holding the Rosary. If she gave this wonderul gift (and weapon) to us, would she not expect us to use it? Believe me, I have personally seen the Rosary cut through Satan's whiles like a knife! I think it can be incorporated into most people's prayer lives w/o much difficulty. Even if it is only said once or twice a month, honestly, we make room for so many other trivial things, myself included! Like spending too much time on the internet! lol! Edited August 1, 2008 by friendofJPII Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeresaBenedicta Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 [quote name='friendofJPII' post='1614456' date='Jul 31 2008, 09:13 PM']I think it is. The other prayers to Mary are very beautiful, but her most notable prayer is the Rosary. Most statues of Mary depict her holding the Rosary. If she gave this wonderul gift (and weapon) to us, would she not expect us to use it? Believe me, I have personally seen the Rosary cut through Satan's whiles like a knife! I think it can be incorporated into most people's prayer lives w/o much difficulty. Even if it is only said once or twice a month, honestly, we make room for so many other trivial things, myself included! Like spending too much time on the internet! lol! [/quote] I suppose then we are to be in disagreement. Yes, the rosary is a great devotion. Yes, it is very powerful. But it's not for everyone, not even for everyone who has devotion to the Blessed Mother. I can't help but feel a bit slighted when you imply this, if only because... well, I love our Lady very much and I have a strong devotion to her. But I don't pray the rosary. And it's not about making time or anything else. It just doesn't jive with my spirituality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
friendofJPII Posted August 1, 2008 Author Share Posted August 1, 2008 [quote name='TeresaBenedicta' post='1614464' date='Jul 31 2008, 07:25 PM']I suppose then we are to be in disagreement. Yes, the rosary is a great devotion. Yes, it is very powerful. But it's not for everyone, not even for everyone who has devotion to the Blessed Mother. I can't help but feel a bit slighted when you imply this, if only because... well, I love our Lady very much and I have a strong devotion to her. But I don't pray the rosary. And it's not about making time or anything else. It just doesn't jive with my spirituality.[/quote] don't feel pressured to answer this, but I'm wondering, if you are devoted to Mary, what could not "jive" about a prayer dedicated to her. We have to be careful about our prayer lives being dictated by our feelings. There are many times when prayer is just not jivin' for me, but I know I must pray anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 [quote name='friendofJPII' post='1613873' date='Jul 31 2008, 11:11 AM']True, but Marian devotion is the surest way to grow in holiness. The Rosary is the crown of Marian devotion. Given Mary's role in the Church and in our salvation, I do not understand how one could completly ignore [i]her prayer.[/i][/quote] See this is where you cross the line. The Church doesn't say this is the surest way to grow in holiness it is your personal opinon, which is not the same thing. You seem to be rather rigid, you consistantly come across that what you think is the best way is also or should be the Church's way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
friendofJPII Posted August 1, 2008 Author Share Posted August 1, 2008 [i][quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Jul 31 2008, 07:49 PM' post='1614483'] See this is where you cross the line. The Church doesn't say this is the surest way to grow in holiness it is your personal opinon, which is not the same thing. You seem to be rather rigid, you consistantly come across that what you think is the best way is also or should be the Church's way.[/i] "From To Jesus through Mary," St. Louis Marie DeMontfort Secondly, we must conclude that, being necessary to God by a necessity which is called "hypothetical", (that is, because God so willed it), the Blessed Virgin is all the more necessary for men to attain their final end. Consequently we must not place devotion to her on the same level as devotion to the other saints as if it were merely something optional. 40. The pious and learned Jesuit, Suarez, Justus Lipsius, a devout and erudite theologian of Louvain, and many others have proved incontestably that devotion to our Blessed Lady is necessary to attain salvation. This they show from the teaching of the Fathers, notably St. Augustine, St. Ephrem, deacon of Edessa, St. Cyril of Jerusalem, St. Germanus of Constantinople, St. John Demascene, St. Anselm, St. Bernard, St. Bernardine, St. Thomas and St. Bonaventure. Even according to Oecolampadius and other heretics, lack of esteem and love for the Virgin Mary is an infallible sign of God's disapproval. On the other hand, to be entirely and genuinely devoted to her is a sure sign of God's approval. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeresaBenedicta Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 [quote name='friendofJPII' post='1614476' date='Jul 31 2008, 09:41 PM']don't feel pressured to answer this, but I'm wondering, if you are devoted to Mary, what could not "jive" about a prayer dedicated to her. We have to be careful about our prayer lives being dictated by our feelings. There are many times when prayer is just not jivin' for me, but I know I must pray anyway.[/quote] I understand your comments about 'feelings' and prayer all too well. And I'm confident in saying that my not praying the rosary hasn't anything to do with feelings. It's actually been something I've discussed with my spiritual director and it's something we've determined is not what I need in my prayer life right now. Yes, the rosary is a prayer dedicted to the Blessed Mother. But see, that's just it... it's a prayer. And not everyone is called to pray in the same way. And there are various ways to express devotion to the Blessed Mother. It's very much an individual analysis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
friendofJPII Posted August 1, 2008 Author Share Posted August 1, 2008 (edited) [quote name='TeresaBenedicta' post='1614497' date='Jul 31 2008, 08:02 PM']I understand your comments about 'feelings' and prayer all too well. And I'm confident in saying that my not praying the rosary hasn't anything to do with feelings. It's actually been something I've discussed with my spiritual director and it's something we've determined is not what I need in my prayer life right now. Yes, the rosary is a prayer dedicted to the Blessed Mother. But see, that's just it... it's a prayer. And not everyone is called to pray in the same way. And there are various ways to express devotion to the Blessed Mother. It's very much an individual analysis.[/quote] Ok, I can accept that there are some people who really aren't called to pray it, or aren't called to pray the Rosary at that particular time in their life. But like I said, by and large, more people are called than aren't. I just feel like I'm being categorized as a spiritual slave driver, because I think the Rosary should be incorporated into most of our prayer lives [i]to some degree[/i]. And C'mon, if phatmassers, aren't praying it, who is? Edited August 1, 2008 by friendofJPII Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeresaBenedicta Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 [quote name='friendofJPII' post='1614502' date='Jul 31 2008, 10:08 PM']Ok, I can accept that there are some people who really aren't called to pray it, or aren't called to pray the Rosary at that particular time in their life. But like I said, by and large, more people are called than aren't. I just feel like I'm being categorized as a spiritual slave driver, because I think the Rosary should be incorporated into most of our prayer lives [i]to some degree[/i]. And C'mon, if phatmassers, aren't praying it, who is? [/quote] I think this here, is a statement that most can agree with. It just sounded as though you were saying that those who don't pray the rosary consistently do not have a devotion to the Blessed Mother and that they are lacking somehow in their spiritual/prayer life. And there have been a few times when I have been specifically called to pray the rosary, for sure. For the entire month before the diaconate ordinations of four of my good seminarian friends, I prayed a daily rosary, for their intentions. I haven't prayed a rosary since then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Majella Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 The rosary is one of the most powerful prayers we have. Just think of the Battle of Lepanto! And here in New Zealand we managed to stop the establishment of an abortuary by praying the rosary outside the local hospital 4hours a day, 6 days a week, for 4 months! Also it is the best family-prayer, the little ones can easily learn it and join in. Our Lady of the Rosary, pray for us! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 [quote name='friendofJPII' post='1614502' date='Jul 31 2008, 07:08 PM']And C'mon, if phatmassers, aren't praying it, who is? [/quote] +J.M.J.+ excuse me, but unless somewhere someone specifically said that they DIDN'T pray the rosary, why are you judging them? you are making a sweeping generalization that is frankly dismissive, condescending and judgmental. sorry, i must be tired, but your attitude stinks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeresaBenedicta Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 [quote name='Lil Red' post='1614794' date='Aug 1 2008, 01:22 AM']+J.M.J.+ excuse me, but unless somewhere someone specifically said that they DIDN'T pray the rosary, why are you judging them? you are making a sweeping generalization that is frankly dismissive, condescending and judgmental. sorry, i must be tired, but your attitude stinks.[/quote] I think she was just trying to add some humour to the conversation... ya know, it would seem that those of us who are here on phatmass must be really into our faith (otherwise who would spend so much time on a Catholic phorum? lol) and that if people here aren't praying it, goodness gracious, who is? Lol. I don't think it was an attempt to say that people here don't-- except for me, I generally don't. Just a joke 'cause we'd all gotten so serious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 [quote name='TeresaBenedicta' post='1614801' date='Jul 31 2008, 10:27 PM']I think she was just trying to add some humour to the conversation... ya know, it would seem that those of us who are here on phatmass must be really into our faith (otherwise who would spend so much time on a Catholic phorum? lol) and that if people here aren't praying it, goodness gracious, who is? Lol. I don't think it was an attempt to say that people here don't-- except for me, I generally don't. Just a joke 'cause we'd all gotten so serious.[/quote] +J.M.J.+ then i truly apologize if that is the spirit that it was meant. like i said, i'm tired and cranky and could just be reading things wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
friendofJPII Posted August 1, 2008 Author Share Posted August 1, 2008 (edited) [quote name='TeresaBenedicta' post='1614801' date='Jul 31 2008, 11:27 PM']I think she was just trying to add some humour to the conversation... ya know, it would seem that those of us who are here on phatmass must be really into our faith (otherwise who would spend so much time on a Catholic phorum? lol) and that if people here aren't praying it, goodness gracious, who is? Lol. I don't think it was an attempt to say that people here don't-- except for me, I generally don't. Just a joke 'cause we'd all gotten so serious.[/quote] Yes, exactly, I was cracking a joke. Wasn't that obvious by my smiley? Edited August 1, 2008 by friendofJPII Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XIX Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 I hear Jack Chick has a lifelong devotion to the Rosary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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