Early Church

[dairygirl4u2c]

Any scholarly phatmassers I encourage to dispute this article:

http://members.aol.com/Puritanone/pope3.htm#III

This is exactly what I have been coming to conclude.

[dUSt]

Please bring up certain points--you can't expect everyone to read that entire thing. This is a phorum, where we dialogue. Unless you'd be okay with us posting entire articles that dispute that article?

[dUSt]

-- http://www.catholic.com/library/Apostolic_Succession.asp

-- http://www.catholic.com/library/Origins_of_Peter_as_Pope.asp

There. Consider your article thoroughly disputed.

[ironmonk]

You're putting up a joe blow site?

You have to double check the whole thing.

Here are a few sites for you...

http://www.Britannica.com

Look up Catholicism and/or Roman Catholic.

Britannica is an unbias resource, if you want, I've got a premium account and will be glad to copy and past any article that you want to see in full.

Also check out http://www.Catholic.com

http://www.NewAdvent.org/Fathers/ --- for all the checks on the quotes.

Please send your $10 to your nearest pro-life organization.

God Bless,

ironmonk

[IcePrincessKRS]

You gentlemen rock.

My only question is if she'll actually read any of that. She's expressed a dislike for our long websites and articles before.

[God Conquers]

yet posts an insane one.

[dairygirl4u2c]

Please bring up certain points--you can't expect everyone to read that entire thing. This is a phorum, where we dialogue. Unless you'd be okay with us posting entire articles that dispute that article?

I admit I have been a hypocrite making a long posting. (though I assume phatcatholic doesn't mind) But I do at least read the long ones and refute them.

I think the whole thing is quite good (don't both sides) but I will get to specifics tomarow.

Edited March 3, 2004 by dairygirl4u2c

[dairygirl4u2c]

Here is something you can start on:

The third Council of Carthage in the year 256 decided in favor of Cyprian's view of baptism. It reported to Stephen, who as Pope on his personal authority excommunicated its members. They met again in September of the same year, repudiated his decision, and ignored his excommunication. Here are Cyprian's words at the opening of the Council: (Mansi, i. 951, quoted by Denny, Papalism, 581, p. 282.)

"None of us setteth himself up as a Bishop of Bishops, or by tyrannical terror forces his colleagues to a necessity of obeying, inasmuch as every bishop, in the free use of his liberty and power, has the right of forming his own judgment, and can no more be judged by another than he can himself judge another."

The African bishops appealed to the East, and among others, Firmilian of Caesarea replied thus: (Among the Letters of Cyprian, lxxv. sec. 24; Kidd, Documents, vol. i. No. 155.)

"What strifes and dissensions hast thou stirred up through the Churches of the whole world! And how great `sin' hast thou `heaped up,' when thou didst cut thyself off from so many flocks. For thou didst cut thyself off; deceive not thyself; for he is truly the schismatic who has made himself an apostate from the communion of the unity of the Church. For while thou thinkest that all may be excommunicated by thee, thou hast excommunicated thyself from all."

Now give me something specific and I will refute it in the same manner as you refute mine.

Edited March 3, 2004 by dairygirl4u2c

[the lumberjack]

I heart dust.

[God Conquers]

The earliest synod (about 220) took the matter up and declared such Baptism invalid, and this decision was reaffirmed in synods held in 255-256 under St. Cyprian. All converts should be re-baptized. St. Cyprian strove to press the African views on Rome, but Pope Stephen (q.v.) menaced excommunication. At the celebrated September Synod of 256 the eighty-seven bishops assembled from the three provinces still maintained their attitude against Baptism by heretics. This error was finally retracted in the Synod (345-348) under Gratus.

Carthage was not a General Council. It was composed of SOME, and only some of the Bishops of Africa. Let alon of all Christendom. They tried to pass the erroneous canon that converts must be REbaptized.

Stephen rightly refused and threatened excommunication. We belieeve in ONE baptism for the forgiveness of sins.

Some years later a similar Synod in Africa retracted the earlier one's views.

Obviously this was not much of an issue... Cyprian is a Saint.

[Laudate_Dominum]

Here is something you can start on:

The third Council of Carthage in the year 256 decided in favor of Cyprian's view of baptism. It reported to Stephen, who as Pope on his personal authority excommunicated its members. They met again in September of the same year, repudiated his decision, and ignored his excommunication. Here are Cyprian's words at the opening of the Council: (Mansi, i. 951, quoted by Denny, Papalism, 581, p. 282.)

"None of us setteth himself up as a Bishop of Bishops, or by tyrannical terror forces his colleagues to a necessity of obeying, inasmuch as every bishop, in the free use of his liberty and power, has the right of forming his own judgment, and can no more be judged by another than he can himself judge another."

The African bishops appealed to the East, and among others, Firmilian of Caesarea replied thus: (Among the Letters of Cyprian, lxxv. sec. 24; Kidd, Documents, vol. i. No. 155.)

"What strifes and dissensions hast thou stirred up through the Churches of the whole world! And how great `sin' hast thou `heaped up,' when thou didst cut thyself off from so many flocks. For thou didst cut thyself off; deceive not thyself; for he is truly the schismatic who has made himself an apostate from the communion of the unity of the Church. For while thou thinkest that all may be excommunicated by thee, thou hast excommunicated thyself from all."

Now give me something specific and I will refute it in the same manner as you refute mine.

I'm sorry but I don't understand.. So a bunch of excommunicants get together and spout off some heresy. How is this an argument against Papal primacy??

[Laudate_Dominum]

Carthage was not a General Council. It was composed of SOME, and only some of the Bishops of Africa. Let alon of all Christendom. They tried to pass the erroneous canon that converts must be REbaptized.

Stephen rightly refused and threatened excommunication. We belieeve in ONE baptism for the forgiveness of sins.

Some years later a similar Synod in Africa retracted the earlier one's views.

Obviously this was not much of an issue... Cyprian is a Saint.

Thanks. And I recall reading in one of Augustine's writings where he talks about Cyprian and basically describes him as a man who fell into heresy but later redeemed himself. It should also be noted that there are many quite juicy quotes from the writings of St. Cyprian that affirm the primacy of Rome in a most vibrant way. And what is the source on your second quote dairygirl?

[God Conquers]

NewAdvent.... the African Synods.

haha, I liked that bit about excomunicated people spouting heresy.

I mean, c'mon, you have nothing better than this? At least throw up some writings from an Anti-Pope or something. Let's get serious.

[phatcatholic]

next......

[littleflower+JMJ]

next......

:drool: