Christian Persecution In Egypt

[Hassan]

I have seen several allusions to the persecution of Christians in Egypt by the hands of Muslims. Reading the posts one would get the impression there is widespread systematic persecution of Christians on religious grounds that is not an exception, but the norm.

I haven't had time to investigate the matter. Skimming Human Rights Watch I have not seen much evidence of this. It seems that most issues relating to religious discrimination focuses on Egypts refusing Christians who converted to Islam for the sake of obtaining certain documentation frem reverting to Christianity. It seems that the Egyptian courts have largely ammended this but still make the individuals have their identification note their reversion from Islam which could lead to discrimination.

My point is that I have not been able to find any evidence of widespread, systematic brutal persecution. Does anyone have hard evidence from a respectiable source?

edit-

I do not intend to imply that religious discrimination does not exist in Egypt. I am asking about the allusions that seem to indivate widespread brutal persecution of Egyptian Christians on religious grounds.

Edited July 24, 2008 by Hassan

[Roamin Catholic]

From Catholic.org
[url="http://www.catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=28555&cb300=vocations"]http://www.catholic.org/international/inte...cb300=vocations[/url]

[quote]ASHINGTON, DC (Catholic Online) - Christian Newswire reports that there will be a rally to show solidarity with Coptic Christians in Egypt who face increasing persecution:

"Rally in Support of Coptic Christians in Egypt
American Egyptian Coptic Christians to organize a peaceful demonstration, on July 16, 2008, in front of the White House, to protest violent attacks against Coptic Christians in Egypt."

"Coptic Organizations in America along with activists from Egypt, the Middle East, Europe and the United states, will conduct a peaceful demonstration in front of the White House on Wednesday July 16, 2008, from 12:00 noon to 4:00 pm."

"The purpose is to convey, to world's opinion and international human rights organizations, recent incidents of persecution, discrimination and marginalization inflicted on Coptic Christians of Egypt by the Egyptian government and Muslim extremists."

"The Copts of Egypt are the largest Christian minority in the Middle East. They number about 15% of Egypt's population of 80 million. Not a month passes by without their churches, homes and businesses being attacked."

"According to a study made by Ibn Khaldoun Research Center in Cairo, over 240 major attacks against the Copts took place during the period from 1972- 2003."

"Magdy Khalil, a writer and researcher, estimates that as a result of these attacks more than 4000 Copts were killed or injured."

"This, in addition to damages to Coptic properties that could exceed hundreds of millions of dollars, during the last three decades alone. Hundreds of Coptic girls are abducted and forced to embrace Islam while security forces act as accomplices and helpers of the criminals."

"During the last few weeks, the extremists attacked a jewelry store owned by Copts killing four Copts. The extremists also attacked Abu Fana Coptic monastery injuring many monks and kidnapping three."

"The abducted monks were tortured, while they were ordered to announce abandoning their Christian faith and embracing Islam. In Fayoum, Muslim extremists attacked homes and businesses owned by Coptic Christians."

"A Coptic Christian man was killed by Muslims in the town of Dafash, governorate of Minia, in the southern part of Egypt."

"We call on the American and International Media, human rights organizations and all freedom loving people to join our demonstration in an effort to send a message to the Egyptian government to stop persecuting the Copts and take responsibility in providing adequate protection for them."[/quote]








[url="http://news.egypt.com/en/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3284&Itemid=424"]http://news.egypt.com/en/index.php?option=...&Itemid=424[/url]

[quote]Organizations of Coptic Christians (OCC) said Thursday, July 10, they will demonstrate in front of the White House in Washington DC to protest against increased persecution of Coptic Christians in Egypt by the government and Muslim extremists following recent killings and attacks on Christian shops and institutions

They said other religious rights activists from America, Europe, Egypt and other the Middle Eastern nations would also participate in the demonstration, due to be held Wednesday, July 16 at noon to 1600 hours Washington time.
The Copts of Egypt are one of the largest Christian minority in the Middle East, numbering some 15 percent of Egypt's population of 80 million, according to church estimates.
However, "not a month passes by without their churches, homes and businesses being attacked," the groups said in a statement monitored by BosNewsLife. The Ibn Khaldoun Research Center in Cairo reportedly said over 240 major attacks against the Copts took place during the period from 1972- 2003.
Among recent attacks, cited by Christian rights investigators was an attack by "extremists" on a Christian run jewelry store, which killed four Copts. The militants reportedly also attacked Abu Fana Coptic monastery injuring monks and kidnapping three. "The abducted monks were tortured, while they were ordered to announce abandoning their Christian faith and embracing Islam."
In the Fayoum area, Muslim militants allegedly also attacked homes and businesses owned by Coptic Christians. "A Coptic Christian man was killed by Muslims in the town of Dafash, governorate of Minia, in the southern part of Egypt," the Coptic groups said.
Magdy Khalil, a writer and researcher, estimates that as a result of these attacks more than 4,000 Copts were killed or injured, the groups said. "This adds to damages to Coptic properties that could exceed hundreds of millions of dollars, during the last three decades alone." In addition, "hundreds" of Coptic girls are abducted and forced to embrace Islam "while security forces act as accomplices and helpers of the criminals," the groups said.
While it was difficult to confirm that figure independently, BosNewsLife and other Christian media have consistently monitored reports of kidnappings.
The groups claimed the government and militants were involved in these and other "incidents of persecution, discrimination and marginalization inflicted on Coptic Christians in Egypt." They said they hopes next week's demonstration will "send a message to the Egyptian government to stop persecuting the Copts and take responsibility in providing adequate protection for them.
The Egyptian government has denied human rights abuses, saying it mainly fights religious extremism. However churches say active Christians are increasingly becoming targets of Islamic militants cooperating with local authorities and police in the predominantly Muslim nation.[/quote]

[Hassan]

[url="http://www.hrw.org/reports/1993/WR93/Mew-02.htm"]http://www.hrw.org/reports/1993/WR93/Mew-02.htm[/url]

[Roamin Catholic]

ok...your point is??

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='Roamin_Catholic' post='1607098' date='Jul 23 2008, 11:28 PM']ok...your point is??[/quote]


I have him blocked, so I don't even know. But generally Hassan's point has been to defend and promote Islam at Phatmass, while stating blatantly false information about Islamic history and Muslim culture, as well as blatantly false information about Christian history, the Bible and Catholic culture. He claims to not be a Muslim, but this is false. Hassan is most certainly a Muslim. Not that this would be a problem in a normal case, but in the case of Hassan he is NOT here at a Catholic message board to learn about Catholicism or to have inter-religious dialogue. He may throw you all a bone once in a while with some kind of statement like "you're right, Muslims do some bad things" or "there are some things I like about the Bible". But he's here to defend and promote Islam. Period.

BTW, since I admitted I have him blocked and didn't read his post let me take a wild guess anyway: Is his post saying Christians aren't being presecuted in Egypt?

Somebody, let me know if I nailed it.

Edited July 24, 2008 by Madame Vengier

[Roamin Catholic]

[quote]My point is that I have not been able to find any evidence of widespread, systematic brutal persecution. Does anyone have hard evidence from a respectiable source?[/quote]

[quote]let me take a wild guess anyway: Is his post saying Christians aren't being presecuted in Egypt?[/quote]

pretty much, oh and he wants to see it from a reputable news source...But oh well, he has been ignoring this thread...He tried to bait you but got me instead....

Edited July 24, 2008 by Roamin_Catholic

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='Roamin_Catholic' post='1607332' date='Jul 24 2008, 10:11 AM']pretty much, oh and he wants to see it from a reputable news source...But oh well, he has been ignoring this thread...He tried to bait you but got me instead....[/quote]


Ah knew it. And it doesn't matter what news source you provide him with, he'll find something wrong with it. Happens every time.

Let's not get baited by him. If he were here for real inter-religious dialogue I would not have him blocked. It was the lies and manipulation that I blocked him for, not because he's defending Islam.

And, FWIW, Christians are suffering terribly in Egpyt. Not only now, but ever since Islam conquered Christian Egypt, they've been suffering. Not necessarily always in violent, brutal ways but Christians have always lived under second-class dhimmi status under Islam and that continues to this day.

Edited July 24, 2008 by Madame Vengier

[Hassan]

[quote name='Roamin_Catholic' post='1607332' date='Jul 24 2008, 10:11 AM']pretty much, oh and he wants to see it from a reputable news source...But oh well, he has been ignoring this thread...He tried to bait you but got me instead....[/quote]

Actually if you read the source it goes into depth about various instances of Christian persecution by "Islamists"

You sources were vague, simply because I point this out dosen't mean I discard them.

The summation by Human Rights Watch, on the other hand, gives specific instances and detailed backgrounds/

[Hassan]

[quote name='Roamin_Catholic' post='1607332' date='Jul 24 2008, 10:11 AM']pretty much[/quote]

False, I noted in my OP no less that I do not disagree that religious persecution exists. I am asking for proof of the rather stark claims made by some individuals.

[quote]oh and he wants to see it from a reputable news source[/quote]

I'm somewhat silly like that.

Tabloids and Internet propaganda sites are garbage, I did not say your source was incredible, I never made any comment on it. It is much to vague however.
[quote]...But oh well, he has been ignoring this thread[/quote]

I posted this at about 12:00 AM last night, I went to be at about 2:00AM, I awoke at 6:45, ate breakfast and went to work until 1:00. I read until 3:00, ate and am now responding.

I don't think that is ignoring the thread. I am awfully sorry I have to make money for school and try to spend more time reading books and working out than posting online.

[quote]..He tried to bait you but got me instead....[/quote]

No, I am genuinely interested in this. I am interested in most human rights issues.

However I don't take outsourced rantings as evidence.

[Roamin Catholic]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1607537' date='Jul 24 2008, 02:58 PM']Tabloids and Internet propaganda sites are garbage, I did not say your source was incredible, I never made any comment on it. It is much to vague however.[/quote]

so, Catholic.org is an internet propaganda site? Sounds fun..and Humans Rights Watch is the go to source for EVERYTHING???
[quote]I posted this at about 12:00 AM last night, I went to be at about 2:00AM, I awoke at 6:45, ate breakfast and went to work until 1:00. I read until 3:00, ate and am now responding.

I don't think that is ignoring the thread. I am awfully sorry I have to make money for school and try to spend more time reading books and working out than posting online.[/quote]

good for you, I'm glad to know your daily schedule, have fun with it...you also hardly know what my day is like, I'm sure I have you beat, but this isnt a competition to see who has a better day...



Madame V...I think I'll follow your lead on this one

[Hassan]

[quote name='Roamin_Catholic' post='1607561' date='Jul 24 2008, 03:24 PM']so, Catholic.org is an internet propaganda site? Sounds fun..and Humans Rights Watch is the go to source for EVERYTHING???[/quote]

"[b]I did not say your source was incredible[/b](yes, wrong word), [b]I never made any comment on it[/b]. [b]It is much to vague however."[/b]

I never once said your site was a propaganda site, I was responding to your comments on my qualification about sources.


[quote]good for you, I'm glad to know your daily schedule, have fun with it...you also hardly know what my day is like, I'm sure I have you beat, but this isnt a competition to see who has a better day...[/quote]
Again, you miss the point.

You claimed I was ignoring this thread. I pointed out how silly this claim was. I posted this thread last last night


[quote]Madame V...I think I'll follow your lead on this one[/quote]

birds of a feather flock together.

I note you dropped your claims that I denied there was persecution of Christians in Egypt.

Funny that you both have a nasty habit of makeing claims about me and refusing to defend them.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='Roamin_Catholic' post='1607561' date='Jul 24 2008, 03:24 PM']so, Catholic.org is an internet propaganda site? Sounds fun..and Humans Rights Watch is the go to source for EVERYTHING???[/quote]

Just like Jihad Watch--one of the most trusted and reputable sites on news and commentary regarding Islamic jihad that you can find on the internet, with Robert Spencer and Hugh Fitzgerald at the helm, both with years and years of experience on the topic, both hugely intelligent and insightful, both of whom have never made rude comments about Muslims and who have repeatedly called for inter-faith dialogue with so-called moderate Muslims, and Spencer is the author of more books than I can list on the topic--is an "internet propaganda site" in Hassan's eyes. Any site that tells the truth about Islamic jihad is "internet propaganda".

Frankly, if Human Rights Watch were truly to be trusted they would spend all their time reporting on and detailing the numerous human rights abuses committed in the name of Islam against women, children and defenseless people all over the world. That's if HRW truly were on top of their game. Because it's a fact that the vast number of instances taking place in the world PRESENTLY in which human rights are abused are taking place at the hands of people who are members of the religion of Islam. To be true to their call HRW would have to change their name to Human Rights Islamic Watch, basically. Just to cover it all. Instead, you will only find an *occasional* report in which the truth is told about Islamic oppression and persecution.

[VeniteAdoremus]

I can't speak from personal experience, but I'm in the young adult group of our local convent of Servants of the Lord and the Virgin of Matara, and we're planning to go on a mission trip to Egypt next year (where "we" is "they" because I can only be part of the preparation due to having to graduate sometime and stuff). These are the experiences of the sisters from the convent in Egypt:

- The locals (80% muslim) are very open, friendly, and in good contact with the Sisters. They try to share their limited resources with the sisters and let their children attend school and playgroups with them. They aren't much interested in Christianity and completely fail to understand the idea of religious life ("What? You're not going to have children? Why on earth not?")
- The government is less than helpful, but not more than with most ngo's.
- Fundamentalists are a constant threat, but not so much in the area where they are at the moment.

So they acknowledge it's not a walk in the park, but they don't recognise the more panicky stories, either.

[Hassan]

[quote name='VeniteAdoremus' post='1623939' date='Aug 11 2008, 08:38 AM']I can't speak from personal experience, but I'm in the young adult group of our local convent of Servants of the Lord and the Virgin of Matara, and we're planning to go on a mission trip to Egypt next year (where "we" is "they" because I can only be part of the preparation due to having to graduate sometime and stuff). These are the experiences of the sisters from the convent in Egypt:

- The locals (80% muslim) are very open, friendly, and in good contact with the Sisters. They try to share their limited resources with the sisters and let their children attend school and playgroups with them. They aren't much interested in Christianity and completely fail to understand the idea of religious life ("What? You're not going to have children? Why on earth not?")
- The government is less than helpful, but not more than with most ngo's.
- Fundamentalists are a constant threat, but not so much in the area where they are at the moment.

So they acknowledge it's not a walk in the park, but they don't recognise the more panicky stories, either.[/quote]

thank you.

[cmotherofpirl]

So all this stuff isn't true:

[url="http://www.hudson.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=hudson_upcoming_events&id=589"]http://www.hudson.org/index.cfm?fuseaction...ents&id=589[/url]

[url="http://www.cswusa.com/countries/Egypt.htm"]http://www.cswusa.com/countries/Egypt.htm[/url]

[url="http://www.persecution.org/suffering/countryinfodetail.php?countrycode=7"]http://www.persecution.org/suffering/count...p?countrycode=7[/url]

[url="http://www.persecution.net/egypt.htm"]http://www.persecution.net/egypt.htm[/url]

[url="http://krishna109.newsvine.com/_news/2008/06/27/1618884-christian-persecution-in-egypt-coptic-diaspora-spreads-the-word"]http://krishna109.newsvine.com/_news/2008/...preads-the-word[/url]

[url="http://copts.com/english1/"]http://copts.com/english1/[/url]