Communion In Independent Catholic Church?

[jmjtina]

had one in our diocese.

They believed the Pope was the Anti-Christ, but were posers and trying to get Catholics to go to their church, claiming everything was legit.

We were told by priests, (Bishop told them to tell parishoners) during announcements at Mass to take precaution (from their "church" and their "catholic shoppe") and that they were not in line with the Church. Also, the fact that the "founder" or whatever would go around telling people the Pope was the Anti-Christ kinda gave it away too.

But man, they sold beautiful statues. Too bad. I couldn't support them.

[mommas_boy]

[quote name='StColette' post='1606064' date='Jul 23 2008, 01:04 PM']As I stated above, if I remember correctly this group isn't only schismatic but is heretical. They have no issue with ordaining women to the priesthood or diaconate. And they have ordained women to the priesthood and diaconate[/quote]

Thank you. You are correct. I didn't read the whole thread like I should have, but instead just posted a reply.

Last I checked (and please correct me if I'm wrong), there is no heresy in the ordination of women to the [b]diaconite[/b], though? Is this correct?

[url="http://www.usccb.org/comm/archives/2003/03-133.shtml"]http://www.usccb.org/comm/archives/2003/03-133.shtml[/url]

"The ordination of women to the diaconate through the laying-on-of-hands by the bishop is also known in the Armenian Church, but it has almost died out in recent years. There are plans in Armenia and elsewhere to revive this ministry. Historically this was a local phenomenon never dispersed throughout the church, and women deacons always had a range of duties more narrowly defined than that of men deacons."

But this is the [b]Armenian[/b] Church. But I'm assuming that they are Eastern Rite Catholics?

I'm able to find other sources as well, but nothing as reputable as the USCCB. I fully accept Church teaching in all regards, and I'm curious if there is heresy in ordination of women to the diaconate. Thank you.

[StColette]

[quote name='mommas_boy' post='1606106' date='Jul 23 2008, 01:43 PM']Thank you. You are correct. I didn't read the whole thread like I should have, but instead just posted a reply.

Last I checked (and please correct me if I'm wrong), there is no heresy in the ordination of women to the [b]diaconite[/b], though? Is this correct?

[url="http://www.usccb.org/comm/archives/2003/03-133.shtml"]http://www.usccb.org/comm/archives/2003/03-133.shtml[/url]

"The ordination of women to the diaconate through the laying-on-of-hands by the bishop is also known in the Armenian Church, but it has almost died out in recent years. There are plans in Armenia and elsewhere to revive this ministry. Historically this was a local phenomenon never dispersed throughout the church, and women deacons always had a range of duties more narrowly defined than that of men deacons."

But this is the [b]Armenian[/b] Church. But I'm assuming that they are Eastern Rite Catholics?

I'm able to find other sources as well, but nothing as reputable as the USCCB. I fully accept Church teaching in all regards, and I'm curious if there is heresy in ordination of women to the diaconate. Thank you.[/quote]

The Church does not allow nor will it ever the ordination of women to the diaconate because the diaconate is part of Holy Orders.

I really hope they are only referring to the ancient term of deaconess as it is properly known. A deaconess during ancient times was not ordained to the Sacrament of Holy Orders. She did assist the priest with the baptism of women because during that time baptisms were done completely nude (the person receiving baptism not the priest). For modesty sake, a deaconess was there for that reason. Now, today we don't do baptisms in the nude so the need for a deaconess is not there. And remember they were not seen as ordained into the Holy Orders.

According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church

Those who may receive Holy Orders (which means priesthood, bishop, or diaconate) are

[b]1577[/b] "Only a baptized man ([i]vir[/i]) validly receives sacred ordination."[sup]66[/sup] The Lord Jesus chose men ([i]viri[/i]) to form the college of the twelve apostles, and the apostles did the same when they chose collaborators to succeed them in their ministry.[sup]67[/sup] The college of bishops, with whom the priests are united in the priesthood, makes the college of the twelve an ever-present and ever-active reality until Christ's return. The Church recognizes herself to be bound by this choice made by the Lord himself. For this reason the ordination of women is not possible.[sup]68[/sup]

[mommas_boy]

[quote name='StColette' post='1606119' date='Jul 23 2008, 01:55 PM']The Church does not allow nor will it ever the ordination of women to the diaconate because the diaconate is part of Holy Orders.[/quote]

Thank you for the clarification.

[quote name='StColette' post='1606119' date='Jul 23 2008, 01:55 PM']I really hope they are only referring to the ancient term of deaconess as it is properly known.[/quote]

I don't know, but they seem to be referring to something formalized:

[quote name='mommas_boy' post='1606106' date='Jul 23 2008, 01:43 PM']"[b]The ordination of women to the diaconate through the laying-on-of-hands by the bishop[/b] is also known in the Armenian Church, but it has almost died out in recent years.[/quote]

Emphasis being on the "laying-on-of-hands by the bishop". Perhaps they don't mean to suggest that this is of sacramental character? That is, they are servants that are [b]commissioned[/b] through the laying-on-of-hands, but that no indelible mark is imposed through the action. Still, it's confusing and misleading.

Edited July 23, 2008 by mommas_boy

[StColette]

[quote name='mommas_boy' post='1606130' date='Jul 23 2008, 02:02 PM']Emphasis being on the "laying-on-of-hands by the bishop". Perhaps they don't mean to suggest that this is of sacramental character? Still, it's confusing and misleading.[/quote]

The Coptic Church seems to be going with the idea of the more ancient form of the job of a deaconess

"In their ministry they are to work exclusively with women and children. They assist at the baptism of women, visit sick women in hospitals, supervise women’s activities in parishes, and clean the church building except for the sanctuary area which they may not enter. "

[mommas_boy]

[quote name='StColette' post='1606136' date='Jul 23 2008, 02:07 PM']The Coptic Church seems to be going with the idea of the more ancient form of the job of a deaconess

"In their ministry they are to work exclusively with women and children. They assist at the baptism of women, visit sick women in hospitals, supervise women’s activities in parishes, and clean the church building except for the sanctuary area which they may not enter. "[/quote]

Ok. So the "ordination", as the quote from the USCCB mentioned, is merely a sign of being commissioned to do the job, but does not carry with it a sacramental character? Perhaps they shouldn't use the word "ordination".

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='mommas_boy' post='1606106' date='Jul 23 2008, 11:43 AM'][url="http://www.usccb.org/comm/archives/2003/03-133.shtml"]http://www.usccb.org/comm/archives/2003/03-133.shtml[/url]

"The ordination of women to the diaconate through the laying-on-of-hands by the bishop is also known in the Armenian Church, but it has almost died out in recent years. There are plans in Armenia and elsewhere to revive this ministry. Historically this was a local phenomenon never dispersed throughout the church, and women deacons always had a range of duties more narrowly defined than that of men deacons."[/quote]
This quotation from the USCCB -- like many things issued by that organization -- is poorly worded, because it has improperly identified the ministry of a deacon with that of a deaconess. Historically and doctrinally speaking these are two completely different ministries, and so a deaconess is not a female deacon.

Edited July 23, 2008 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='mommas_boy' post='1606143' date='Jul 23 2008, 12:12 PM']Ok. So the "ordination", as the quote from the USCCB mentioned, is merely a sign of being commissioned to do the job, but does not carry with it a sacramental character? Perhaps they shouldn't use the word "ordination". [/quote]
In the Eastern Churches the word [i]ordination[/i] is used in its more ancient and broader sense, which is why men are still [i]ordained[/i] to the minor orders in the East, while most of the minor orders were suppressed in the Latin Church by Pope Paul VI following Vatican II.

[mommas_boy]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1606154' date='Jul 23 2008, 02:32 PM']This quotation from the USCCB -- like many things issued by that organization -- is poorly worded, because it has improperly identified the ministry of a deacon with that of a deaconess. Historically and doctrinally speaking these are two ministries are completely different, and so [b]a deaconess is not a female deacon[/b].[/quote]

That helps, and should be useful in defending Church teaching against priestly ordination of women. I know a few people that object based upon the grounds of the deaconess in history, and this single statement helps to clarify.

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1606161' date='Jul 23 2008, 02:37 PM']In the Eastern Churches the word [i]ordination[/i] is used in its more ancient and broader sense, which is why men are still [i]ordained[/i] to the minor orders in the East, while most of the minor orders were suppressed in the Latin Church by Pope Paul VI following Vatican II.[/quote]

So "ordination", in the broader sense, means "anointed to perform a task", but does not necessarily mean having received a Sacrament.

Got it. Thanks. :highfive:

Edited July 23, 2008 by mommas_boy

[Apotheoun]

In the ancient Church the term [i]ordination[/i] (cheirothesia) meant to "set aside" a person, to "call him out," or to "consecrate him to a sacred ministry," by the laying on of hands.

Minor clerics (e.g., porters, exorcists, lectors, acolytes, and sub-deacons, and -- in some Eastern Churches -- cantors and catechists as well) where held to be [i]ordained[/i] because they were being [i]set aside[/i] or [i]called out[/i] for a sacred ministry within the Church.

Edited July 23, 2008 by Apotheoun

[CatherineM]

When the permanent deaconate was revived 20+ years ago, it was assumed by many people that women would be included. The Archbishop in OKC was so desperate for the help, that he started the formation program before the official documents came down. The first class was half women. They were close to ordination before it came down that women would not be included. The men in the class decided to start formation over again rather than go straight to ordination. They had bonded, and didn't feel right proceeding.

I could understand the need for deaconesses in the Coptic church since they are in areas where they may be dealing with Sharia laws, and need to maintain a different level of modesty that we do.