Im Confused By The Purgatory Thread

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote]If Jesus took the suffering away for sin then why do we suffer because of what we do here. The alcoholic has destroyed his family. His wife left him, he never sees his kids, he has physical ailments. All of this is due to his sin. We all suffer for our sins. They come with a price regardless of whether we have repented or not so the logic you use just isn't there. This is all a part of our sanctification. Please read my post above about sanctification and purgatory because that is what I am confused by with protestant theology.[/quote]

as per why does jesus have to suffer, if we get punished too. i'd say what thes said.

i'd add also.. that arguably,,, the punishment that is deserved for sin, is infinite. that's something that we can't pay, only something as infinite from the other direction could pay, namely jesus' punishment. the temporal punishment, as the cahtolic church calls it, is not punishment for itself only, but temporal, getting the dings out... and is personal to you. the infinite problem isn't and can't be dealth wiht, but justice can at least be satisfied not only infinitely but also personally, so is all in all just.

now... if you ask, why can't the justice that occurs at the personal level be sufficient, ? why do we say it's nececssarily infinte? i guess in a sense, we can't undo the sins... so it's permanent and infintei like... but, we can't undo it, so why did Jesus have to suffer, what's the point? and especially since he didn't do it... so we're getting another to techincally take our place for somehting that can't be fixed?
i'm actually getting into my beefs with legal atonement... and as was said, these are all related but distinct concpets (atonement v. justification etc).
this is why i'm mroe of an orthodox perspective as per the atonement (it's been said to not be a definitve CC teaching, so even catholics could believe it i think, but largely they believe in legal atonrment). what was jesus' purpose in dying? to demonstrate the greatest love for the greatest injustice to ever occur, to ensure the manifestation of the spirit, to "medically recue" as the orthodox say, and spiritually rescue etc. to not implicate that fighting is good to people who wouldn't know better,,,, (even though he was probbaly justified, as most self defsnse arguments go) there's lots of meanings that could be attributed without a legalistic atonement.
and justiice is satisfed by what you get personally. you break it, you fix it, you suffer the consequences, punishment done. anything more, is subsituting someone for soemthing they didn't do in a way that doesn't fix what happened. i mean, if you could say that jesus fixed the broken thing as per analogy a lamp, then that's slick, but that's not what's going on, to human understanding anyway.

but i could be wrong.
i could be gravely wrong....

it could also be argued, and this is pretty trancendant... that if we insist on an infinite punishment (which i guess is my beef), we do indeed need an infinite fix, and only a legal fix could suffice (it's legal only cause Jesus didn't do it, the sin). then the human life, is a means for somone like jesus, to die, without ever really dying permanently to oblivion. that jesus would even have to die in a temporal sense, is infinitely sufficient.
now... i still don't like that it's a techincal legal preparation going on but.

Edited July 25, 2008 by dairygirl4u2c

[dairygirl4u2c]

i guess i see typing that, that it really gets to the nature of what punishment is.
if you insist a sin deserves infinite punishment... there is nothing that one could do to fix it and jesus' legal atonement is necessary. if you view punishment as fixing the thing, and tit for tat, proportional to what was done, then infinite doesn't make sense.

i think i could actually go with the legal atonement idea more, cause it's reasonable to view punishment as something that's not only necessary, but infinitely so. and when you takl about punishment,,, it's mostly a legal thing, a technical thing that's not suppose to fix anything... it's punishment. Jesus taking it, isn't meant ot fix that it was done, but it could arguably be said to take the place, take the punishment. techincally and legally

as i said before,
[quote]The traditional idea of savior i is that God is both just and loving, but must somehow reconcile justly our sins. The idea is that any sin is infinitely wrong and takes an infinite payment to reconcile. The only way to do that according to most Christians is for Jesus to die as a legal sacrafice and pay that legal debt to God. God decides as judge to make the sentence, but as a father he decides to come down from the bench, and takes the punishment.[/quote]

interesting,,, the awareness that it's all about punishment, the issue... cause i didn't ever really understand the legal stuff at all really, and i knew a lot of arguments about it.

Edited July 25, 2008 by dairygirl4u2c

[dairygirl4u2c]

[url="http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1252/is_2_132/ai_n14819429/pg_3?tag=artBody;col1"]http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m125...ag=artBody;col1[/url]

not a whole lot of new ideas,,, but some good foot notes etc.

[saved by grace]

[quote name='mortify' post='1607471' date='Jul 24 2008, 01:23 PM']He was crucified, not stoned.[/quote]

im sorry for the way i worded that. your absolutely right and i should of reread what i wrote.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='mortify' post='1606553' date='Jul 23 2008, 07:40 PM']You already know Catholic teaching isn't only based on what's explicitly revealed in scripture. That the pain of purgatory overwhelms the greatest pain that can be experienced on earth, is taught in the Catechism and is found in the teachings of the Fathers. St Augustine said the pain of purgatory is greater than all the pain the martyrs suffered COMBINED.[/quote]

It's not in the Catechism and St. Augustine was born a couple centuries after the close of public revelation (at the death of St. John). His writings are to be commended and respected, but we aren't required to believe it unless it's from Scripture and/or Tradition, or declared an infallible teaching of the Church in a Council or by the Pope.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='mortify' post='1606793' date='Jul 23 2008, 10:04 PM']I think the Saintly Doctor's point is that it's better to suffer as a martyr than in purgatory![/quote]

"Making a point" implies the use of hyperbole, which means it definitely shouldn't be taken literally.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='saved by grace' post='1607124' date='Jul 24 2008, 01:56 AM']So if the pain that we will suffer in purgatory is greater then all the pain the martyrs suffered combinded and is needed to get into heaven, why did Jesus have to be stoned to death on a cross for our sins ?[/quote]

Please be aware that this doesn't come from Scripture or Tradition. It comes from a writing by St. Augustine and must be read in the proper context. It wasn't intended to be taken as a literal fact. We simply don't know that much about purgatory to teach "facts" about what happens there or what the experience is like. We can only speculate based on what God has revealed to His Church.

[quote name='saved by grace' post='1607124' date='Jul 24 2008, 01:56 AM']Am I the only one who is bothered by this ?[/quote]

No, and you're apparently ignoring the posts of those who are on your side here. I've already clarified this and even quoted everything from the Catechism about purgatory.

[saved by grace]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1610505' date='Jul 28 2008, 09:10 AM']Please be aware that this doesn't come from Scripture or Tradition. It comes from a writing by St. Augustine and must be read in the proper context. It wasn't intended to be taken as a literal fact. We simply don't know that much about purgatory to teach "facts" about what happens there or what the experience is like. We can only speculate based on what God has revealed to His Church.
No, and you're apparently ignoring the posts of those who are on your side here. I've already clarified this and even quoted everything from the Catechism about purgatory.[/quote]

Sorry LouisvilleFan I did see your post and apprecatie your reply's because they make sence. I also thank you for stateing how some of the information being passed along in this thread isnt complete 100 % fact. It seems as if some are obsessed with suffering and feel that everyone must experience it in its greatest form. I think suffering is very beneficial and believe everyone goes through it, some more then others of course. I also believe though in a LOVEING GOD who would not put us through suffering that wasnt necessary. I think thats where some of us dont see eye to eye in this thread.

Edited July 28, 2008 by saved by grace

[Deb]

Jesus Christ died on the cross to put an end to eternal death. Death was a result of the sin of Adam and Eve. Jesus, by being fully man and fully God, was able to create a bridge between man and God.

Prior to man being able to be resurrected (which Jesus was as fully man) when someone died, they just died. No heaven, no nothing. Jesus died for original sin. Christ issued in a new convenant. We were given the Son of God, who became the Son of Man so that the sons of man can become sons of God. We are all to live as Christ lived and not just meaning, living the ten commandments and the beatitudes. It means truly living like Christ, spreading the Gospel, helping the poor, suffering and dying. His obedience, his suffering and his death were all done in order to enable us to – obey, suffer and to die a holy death in union with Christ. Christ said that we were to pick up our crosses and follow him. Catholism cannot be separated from suffering.

We have to keep in mind that Christ did not pay a full eternal penalty for sin. He died to bring us a chance and choice of eternal salvation. Every single Mass we are offering up the life, suffering and death of our Lord along with our sufferings as a sacrifice to God. We ask God to accept our sacrifice in every Mass. We are still asking for mercy every single day.
Read up on the covenants prior to the new one that Jesus Christ brought us. It all comes together. This is not the easiest thing to understand but, if you really study the bible from the Old testament through the New, you will see why Christ died as he did. He was fulfilling the plan as God wrote it at the beginning of time.

One thing that a person should keep in mind is that Christ did not come as just some super nice God guy who was going to die for us and then all would be nice and we could go along and sin as we please. We must remember that throughout the old testament, the people of Israel were constantly paying the price for their refusal to live by God's commandments and to honor him. Jesus is called The Lamb of God. Revelations shows him returning as The Lion of the tribe of Judah. Everything in revelations is centered around fear. Jesus spoke more about hell than he did of heaven. When he spoke about them both, he stressed the punishment more than the reward. Jesus spent three times the amount of time on the "Woes" than he did on the "Beatitudes." Christ is a lamb because he stressed nonagression. God calls all of his children to him but, he does not force his will upon them. His children will however have to pay the price for turning from him and turning to sin.

So, purgatory could be a whole lot of stuff. That is why I consider our life here a test. Very few will pass with a top score. The rest, after death, will have to make up what they failed to get here on earth.

I will add a disclaimer. I don't always know how to phrase what I understand in my heart so if anyone can come up with a simpler way to explain why Christ died and sin etc, please do so. I am always ready to learn all that I can.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='saved by grace' post='1610814' date='Jul 28 2008, 05:57 PM']Sorry LouisvilleFan I did see your post and apprecatie your reply's because they make sence. I also thank you for stateing how some of the information being passed along in this thread isnt complete 100 % fact. It seems as if some are obsessed with suffering and feel that everyone must experience it in its greatest form. I think suffering is very beneficial and believe everyone goes through it, some more then others of course. I also believe though in a LOVEING GOD who would not put us through suffering that wasnt necessary. I think thats where some of us dont see eye to eye in this thread.[/quote]

You're welcome. I wonder if Catholics don't obsess a little too much over purgatory simply because it's one belief that distinguishes us so much from Protestantism. I feel like some of us emphasize it to a fault and are forgetting that purgatory is simply preparation for Heaven. It's not a destination. Of course, we don't hear much about it at Mass. I can only recall one homily about purgatory and grace wasn't mentioned.

Other thing to remember, though, is that in Christ suffering is redeemed. It helps destroy pride and become detached from this world and grow in hope of being in Heaven. Obviously, we should trust God doesn't give us more suffering or temptation than we can handle.


[quote name='Deb' post='1610969' date='Jul 28 2008, 08:05 PM']So, purgatory could be a whole lot of stuff. That is why I consider our life here a test. Very few will pass with a top score. The rest, after death, will have to make up what they failed to get here on earth.

I will add a disclaimer. I don't always know how to phrase what I understand in my heart so if anyone can come up with a simpler way to explain why Christ died and sin etc, please do so. I am always ready to learn all that I can. [/quote]

Being a former Protestant, I prefer to steer clear of wording like "make up" because it implies we believe we must perform some works to get into Heaven. Fact is, we can't do anything in purgatory. We can't even pray there. Whatever happens there is God's work, just as it should be on earth.

[mortify]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1610501' date='Jul 28 2008, 09:00 AM']It's not in the Catechism[/quote]

Depends on the Catechism.

[quote]and St. Augustine was born a couple centuries after the close of public revelation (at the death of St. John). His writings are to be commended and respected,[/quote]

Don't see your point.

St Augustine is only one authority.

[quote]but we aren't required to believe it unless it's from Scripture and/or Tradition, or declared an infallible teaching of the Church in a Council or by the Pope.[/quote]

Under this false reasoning I don't have to accept Vatican II.

There is enough testimony from great Saints that I am willing to accept this doctrine, if you choose different so be it, eventually we'll find out who was right.


God bless

[mortify]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1610502' date='Jul 28 2008, 09:02 AM']"Making a point" implies the use of hyperbole, which means it definitely shouldn't be taken literally.[/quote]

You don't need a hyperbole to make a point.

[mortify]

From: [url="http://iteadthomam.blogspot.com/search?q=purgatory"][u]Purgatory[/u][/url]

[img]http://bp1.blogger.com/_ksj1A_ecUKY/Ro5iymL_haI/AAAAAAAAAWQ/wE_mSxO5Yd8/s1600-h/Lonelysoul.jpg[/img]

==QUOTE==

[b]What are some of the sufferings that a soul in Purgatory has to endure? Is the suffering in Puragatory worse than the most horrendous suffering on earth?[/b]

Again, I quote Aquinas. In the same place, he says:

In purgatory there will be a twofold punishment. One is the punishment of [temporary] damnation (poena damni), insofar as the souls are delayed in attaining the divine vision. The other is sense-punishment (poena sensus) as far as they are punished by corporeal fire. [i][color="#FF0000"]And in both respects the slightest punishment in purgatory exceeds the greatest punishment of this life.[/color][/i]

This is the case because the more something is desired, the more disturbing its absence, and the affection with which the holy souls, after this life, desire the Supreme Good is most intense, because this affection is not retarded by the bulk of the body. Another reason they suffer is because their goal of enjoying the Supreme Good would already be taking place were it not for the impediment of sin and its consequences, and hence they suffer from the delay.

Similarly, also, because pain is not the same as injury, but rather it is the sensing of injury, the more sensitive something is, the more it suffers pain from injury. Hence, the injuries received in the most sensitive parts are the ones that cause the most pain. Moreover, because the body’s entire capacity to sense comes from the soul, therefore, if something injurious acts on the soul itself, this will necessarily be most afflicting... Therefore, it is necessarily the case that the punishment of purgatory, with regard to both the punishment of [temporal] damnation and the sense-punishment, exceeds all the punishments of this life.

==END==

Edited July 29, 2008 by mortify

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='mortify' post='1611056' date='Jul 28 2008, 10:04 PM']Depends on the Catechism.[/quote]

Which Catechism are you finding this in? There must be a reason it's not included in the current one.

[quote name='mortify' post='1611056' date='Jul 28 2008, 10:04 PM']Don't see your point.[/quote]

My point is everything we are required to believe is included in Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, and the entirety of both come from the apostolic age. The apostolic age ended when St. John died, thus there is no new revelation.

[quote name='mortify' post='1611056' date='Jul 28 2008, 10:04 PM']Under this false reasoning I don't have to accept Vatican II.[/quote]

Can you explain how my reasoning is false? I can't accept your opinion alone.

[quote name='mortify' post='1611056' date='Jul 28 2008, 10:04 PM']There is enough testimony from great Saints that I am willing to accept this doctrine, if you choose different so be it, eventually we'll find out who was right.[/quote]

That's just the thing. We can have differing beliefs about the experience of purgatory because all we know is the purpose it serves in preparing a soul for Heaven.

Edited July 29, 2008 by LouisvilleFan

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='mortify' post='1611068' date='Jul 28 2008, 10:16 PM']From: [url="http://iteadthomam.blogspot.com/search?q=purgatory"][u]Purgatory[/u][/url]

[img]http://bp1.blogger.com/_ksj1A_ecUKY/Ro5iymL_haI/AAAAAAAAAWQ/wE_mSxO5Yd8/s1600-h/Lonelysoul.jpg[/img]

==QUOTE==

[b]What are some of the sufferings that a soul in Purgatory has to endure? Is the suffering in Puragatory worse than the most horrendous suffering on earth?[/b]

Again, I quote Aquinas. In the same place, he says:

In purgatory there will be a twofold punishment. One is the punishment of [temporary] damnation (poena damni), insofar as the souls are delayed in attaining the divine vision. The other is sense-punishment (poena sensus) as far as they are punished by corporeal fire. [i][color="#FF0000"]And in both respects the slightest punishment in purgatory exceeds the greatest punishment of this life.[/color][/i]

This is the case because the more something is desired, the more disturbing its absence, and the affection with which the holy souls, after this life, desire the Supreme Good is most intense, because this affection is not retarded by the bulk of the body. Another reason they suffer is because their goal of enjoying the Supreme Good would already be taking place were it not for the impediment of sin and its consequences, and hence they suffer from the delay.

Similarly, also, because pain is not the same as injury, but rather it is the sensing of injury, the more sensitive something is, the more it suffers pain from injury. Hence, the injuries received in the most sensitive parts are the ones that cause the most pain. Moreover, because the body’s entire capacity to sense comes from the soul, therefore, if something injurious acts on the soul itself, this will necessarily be most afflicting... Therefore, it is necessarily the case that the punishment of purgatory, with regard to both the punishment of [temporal] damnation and the sense-punishment, exceeds all the punishments of this life.

==END==[/quote]

Okay, we're getting somewhere now... there is one significant problem with Aquinas' logic, which may be due to limited scientific knowledge of his time: a body's "entire capacity to sense" does not come from the soul. We have a nervous system that gives us the capacity of physican sensation. Now, it can be said that emotional pain is usually worse than physical pain. However, knowing that animals can sense emotional pain, we must conclude that emotional pain is more a temporaral experience than spiritual. The Catechism only mentions temporal punishment. Is sense-punishment even possible without a physical body?

Of course, there is still the pain of knowing we could be Heaven when we are not. I don't think "punishment" is the best word to describe it though. If a married couple must be separated for a long period of time, they wouldn't consider their separation a punishment, even if it was somehow their own fault. Still, it would be a painful experience because they love each other more than anyone else, that same love would also serve to console them. I think in a similar way, we must balance the pain of separation from God in purgatory with the consolation that we have certain expectation of being in Heaven.

So, I don't know. When we read anything from as far back as Aquinas' time, the context and reasoning are usually more important to us than the conclusions. After all, he also didn't believe in the Immaculate Conception, but his reasons was rooted in the question of when human life actually begins. Once science was able to tell us that human life begins at conception, the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception logically followed.

And, of course, Aquinas may be the greatest theologian in Church history, but he his not Scripture or Tradition.