Im Confused By The Purgatory Thread

[thessalonian]

In other words sanctification serves no purpose because they are going to be really righteous when the die anyway. If evil goes with the body they why do those who are evil not become righteous at death?

[Paddington]

I've never been told by a Protestant that sanctification serves no purpose or that the unregenerate become okay at death.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Paddington' post='1605209' date='Jul 22 2008, 12:44 PM']I've never been told by a Protestant that sanctification serves no purpose or that the unregenerate become okay at death.[/quote]

I did not say that any protestant believes that sanctification serves no purpose. That, however is the logical conclusion that forces a contradition if one becomes truly holy and righteous anyway at death. I also did not say I have had any protestant say that the unregenerate become okay at death. Again you do not deal with my questions head on but rather distort them in to something they are not. I merely pointed out things I see as contradictions by my understanding of what imputed righteous means and what the purpose of sanctification is. We are made holy and perfect via sanctification. That is my understanding of the definition. You say, well that happens when the flesh falls off the soul anyway. That seems a bit odd to me. I do agree actually that concupisence goes away, i.e. our tendancy toward sins but this is a different discussion. But imputed righteousness says we are not really holy and pure. I never knew that it said our souls are but our bodies aren't.

Edited July 22, 2008 by thessalonian

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1605095' date='Jul 22 2008, 10:04 AM']But then we don't want to get all arrogant and ASSUME that we're worthy of Heaven, so Purgatory ends up being a natural diplomatic solution. But the reality is that we are not supposed to strive for Purgatory. We're supposed to strive for Heaven. It's just not that easy, is all.[/quote]

However, purgatory isn't a "middle ground" nor is it a diplomatic solution between Heaven and Hell. God does not make compromises and He definitely is not a diplomat. We don't "aim for Heaven" and rely on purgatory as a spiritual safety net in case we miss.

This isn't aimed at you personally, so much, but I just can't believe where so many people got these crazy wacked out ideas about purgatory. I keep wondering if I'm still on phatmass!

It's this simple: we will all go to Heaven or Hell. Going to Heaven precludes God's grace completing in us the work of sanctification, purging of temporal punishment, and all that other theological stuff that happens in purgatory. It's part of the package. So, aim for Heaven, and God will take care of the rest.

Edited July 22, 2008 by LouisvilleFan

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote]As to purgatory the issue is much deeper and I'm just beginning to understand it. You really need a proper understanding of justification, sanctification, forgiveness, and punishment (the parts I'm working on!) and then you'll understand purgatory.[/quote]

yes, definitely. it's about interconnected, but distinct concepts.
[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s=&showtopic=35&view=findpost&p=1601422"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s...t&p=1601422[/url]

i'd check out some of the other stuff i posted about justification etc.

Edited July 22, 2008 by dairygirl4u2c

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1605297' date='Jul 22 2008, 03:48 PM']yes, definitely. it's about interconnected, but distinct concepts.
[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s=&showtopic=35&view=findpost&p=1601422"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s...t&p=1601422[/url]

i'd check out some of the other stuff i posted about justification etc.[/quote]

I think you're making a very simple doctrine much more complicated than it actually is. I understand you like to ask a lot of questions and explore these topics as deeply as possible, but a lot of times there just isn't that much to be said as far as what we know from Tradition and Scripture. There is a lot of speculation and private revelation, and all that stuff can be interesting to explore along with the relationship between purgatory and sanctification or whatever, but it's also good to sit back at times and simply ponder the mystery, praising God for the work He does and the grace He provides.

[Paddington]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1605231' date='Jul 22 2008, 03:45 PM']I did not say that any protestant believes that sanctification serves no purpose.[/quote]

Agreed.

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1605231' date='Jul 22 2008, 03:45 PM']That, however is the logical conclusion that forces a contradition if one becomes truly holy and righteous anyway at death.[/quote]

They have other things that take the edge off of it. They don't normally believe in an egalitarian Heaven. And most Protestants do not believe in Justification that is unaccompanied by new life in Christ from the time of conversion until the time of death. Also, it is widely believed among Protestants that a disobedient Christian is completely miserable in life.
"Logical conclusion" is not safe here, and people are not logical. In fact, the Faith is not logical. Nobody's faith. If you break the Catholic Faith into isolated parts, the parts will each be open to a list of "pros and cons." The "cons" will have some unflattering "logical conclusions." But, the Catholic Faith is a cohesive whole and the parts justify each other. It is the same with theological systems such as Lutheranism and Calvinism.

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1605231' date='Jul 22 2008, 03:45 PM']I also did not say I have had any protestant say that the unregenerate become okay at death.[/quote]

Agreed.

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1605231' date='Jul 22 2008, 03:45 PM']Again you do not deal with my questions head on but rather distort them in to something they are not.[/quote]

You read too much into it. I'm putting 2 cents into the discussion. Lots of people do it in lots of threads and the discussions expand from it. Please try to see better things out of me. Or see insensitivity or frustration as opposed to sleaze.
I will try to be respectful too.

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1605231' date='Jul 22 2008, 03:45 PM']I merely pointed out things I see as contradictions by my understanding of what imputed righteous means and what the purpose of sanctification is. We are made holy and perfect via sanctification. That is my understanding of the definition.[/quote]

Perfectly understandable.


[quote name='thessalonian' post='1605231' date='Jul 22 2008, 03:45 PM']You say, well that happens when the flesh falls off the soul anyway. That seems a bit odd to me. I do agree actually that concupisence goes away, i.e. our tendancy toward sins but this is a different discussion.[/quote]

Protestants believe in concupiscence in every person. They are not likely to use the same word, but yea. And they believe in the tension between new life and concupiscence in those who have received that grace. The means and outcomes of grace are different to be sure, but the general idea looks the same. If concupiscence falls off before Protestant-Heaven, or before (or after) Purgatory does not look like an issue to me. If you can clear that up for me, then great.

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1605231' date='Jul 22 2008, 03:45 PM']But imputed righteousness says we are not really holy and pure. I never knew that it said our souls are but our bodies aren't.[/quote]

One misunderstanding we might have right now is about souls and bodies. I didn't say anything that I wanted to be taken that way. That reminds me of how people say that the soul, mind and spirit are 3 different things, and I never know what they are talking about. (especially the soul/spirit distinction.) And I don't want to go dissing the body on behalf of people that probably don't diss the body so much. They just think it will be replaced/upgraded one day as Catholics do.

I'm only going for the "new nature and old nature" thing. "Dead in sin" vs. "Alive in Christ." "Spiritual nature" vs. "Fleshly nature." "State of grace" vs. "the opposite."

Imputed righteousness just might say that believers aren't holy and pure, but those who believe it also believe in Baptism of the Holy Spirit, regeneration, having God's law written on their hearts, repentance, church, confession and perseverance. The things that go along with imputed righteousness can be seen as separate, but a one-word Protestant definition of salvation would probably include all of these things. Of course, you never know who is actually believing what and there are Protestants who can be pretty "bare-minimum."

Well....sorry for whatever this lacks, but I'm tired and hitting 'add reply.'

Edited July 22, 2008 by Paddington

[Lounge Daddy]

[quote name='kujo' post='1604950' date='Jul 21 2008, 11:17 PM']I always feel like my sins are like dents and scratches on the body of a car. I can wash the car, get it detailed and painted, but the dent remains and will remain until they get banged out in purgatory...[/quote]
Oh Amen, brother!

[mortify]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1605074' date='Jul 22 2008, 04:23 AM']Could you elaborate on this statement? That's nowhere in public revelation, that I'm aware of.[/quote]

You already know Catholic teaching isn't only based on what's explicitly revealed in scripture. That the pain of purgatory overwhelms the greatest pain that can be experienced on earth, is taught in the Catechism and is found in the teachings of the Fathers. St Augustine said the pain of purgatory is greater than all the pain the martyrs suffered COMBINED.

[Selah]

But they suffered for the greatest cause of all...that makes it all worth while

[mortify]

[quote name='Selah' post='1606618' date='Jul 23 2008, 06:12 PM']But they suffered for the greatest cause of all...that makes it all worth while[/quote]

I think the Saintly Doctor's point is that it's better to suffer as a martyr than in purgatory!

[saved by grace]

[quote name='mortify' post='1606553' date='Jul 23 2008, 05:40 PM']You already know Catholic teaching isn't only based on what's explicitly revealed in scripture. That the pain of purgatory overwhelms the greatest pain that can be experienced on earth, is taught in the Catechism and is found in the teachings of the Fathers. St Augustine said the pain of purgatory is greater than all the pain the martyrs suffered COMBINED.[/quote]

So if the pain that we will suffer in purgatory is greater then all the pain the martyrs suffered combinded and is needed to get into heaven, why did Jesus have to be stoned to death on a cross for our sins ?
Am I the only one who is bothered by this ? I understand im a screw up and a sinner and deserve punishment from God. I accept this but for pete sake allow Jesus then not to have to suffer in my place. If the pain fellt in purgatory is gonna be far greater then the pain Christ felt on the cross again why did Christ have to suffer on the cross ?
Arent I suffering for my sins in purgatory ? Going through this pain that I cant even imagine ? Again why did Christ have to die the way he did when he is INNOCENT, PERFECT, AND BLAMELESS for our sin if were gonna suffer pain " greater then all the pain combined suffered by the martyrs" ?

Edited July 24, 2008 by saved by grace

[thessalonian]

I guess I didn't read the purgatory thread. I don't agree that everyone who goes through purgatory suffers so excruciatingly. There are those in purgatory who are in the deepest rungs that suffer quite intensely. But there are also some who are only in briefly and receive lesser suffering.. It's not a one suffering fits all.

If Jesus took the suffering away for sin then why do we suffer because of what we do here. The alcoholic has destroyed his family. His wife left him, he never sees his kids, he has physical ailments. All of this is due to his sin. We all suffer for our sins. They come with a price regardless of whether we have repented or not so the logic you use just isn't there. This is all a part of our sanctification. Please read my post above about sanctification and purgatory because that is what I am confused by with protestant theology.

[mortify]

[quote name='saved by grace' post='1607124' date='Jul 23 2008, 11:56 PM']So if the pain that we will suffer in purgatory is greater then all the pain the martyrs suffered combinded and is needed to get into heaven, why did Jesus have to be stoned to death on a cross for our sins ?[/quote]

He was crucified, not stoned.
[quote]Am I the only one who is bothered by this ? I understand im a screw up and a sinner and deserve punishment from God. I accept this but for pete sake allow Jesus then not to have to suffer in my place. If the pain fellt in purgatory is gonna be far greater then the pain Christ felt on the cross again why did Christ have to suffer on the cross ?
Arent I suffering for my sins in purgatory ? Going through this pain that I cant even imagine ? Again why did Christ have to die the way he did when he is INNOCENT, PERFECT, AND BLAMELESS for our sin if were gonna suffer pain " greater then all the pain combined suffered by the martyrs" ?[/quote]

The simple answer is that we're responsible too, and we have to do what we can. If I committed adultery and then simply said, "I'm sorry," that wouldn't satisfy the guilt for my crime. We have to remember God is a God of Justice, and I would have to make some penance to try to rectify my wrong. Penance in a case of adultery would probably be more complex, it's a grave wrong and I'd definitely be doing a lot of mortification to try to appease God. Now, please realize, that I'm not saying my penance will motivate God to *forgive* me my sins, only a Catholic Priest can validly absolve me by the power of Christ, but my penance is to show God I'm sorry and also rectify my wrong by fulfilling justice.

Lets give a simpler example. Suppose a kid plays ball and accidentally strikes one into a neighbor's window. The old lady who owns the house can *forgive* the boy, but the boy will still have to pay to have the window fixed (penance!) The same principle applies to us and God. If I'm absolved but don't do any penance or not enough penance, by the mercy of God I'll be able to make it up in purgatory.

As for the pains of purgatory, it's common these days to lessen everything, you know, less people go to hell, more of the unbaptized go to heaven than ever imagined, and purgatory is more of an uncomfortable situation than real pain. Perhaps there's some truth to these, but I prefer the old school understanding of things, and the pain of purgatory was never taken lightly, to the extent that the SLIGHTEST pain in purgatory is GREATER than the WORST pain on earth! Why this is no longer believed beats me, but I think our pious forefathers knew what they were talking about!

Besides, nothing wrong with being prepared by doing more

God bless

Edited July 24, 2008 by mortify

[thessalonian]

So your claim is once one becomes a Christian they are not punished for their sins? The Bible disagrees.

Heb 12
[4] In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.
[5] And have you forgotten the exhortation which addresses you as sons? -- "My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord,
nor lose courage when you are punished by him.
[6] For the Lord disciplines him whom he loves,
and chastises every son whom he receives."
[7] It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline?
[8] If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons

Why all this discipline if Christ did all the suffering you ask? God loves you I say.

Edited July 25, 2008 by thessalonian