Im Confused By The Purgatory Thread

[saved by grace]

Hello.
I am a bit confused by the responces of catholics in the purgatory thread. What i take from it is that most of you expect hell but hope that by some long shot you can slide into purgatory and if you get there you expect to experience unimaginable pain for a really long time. Is this what the church teaches and am I as a catholic supposed to expect this ?

The bible tells me in 1 John 1:7: "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleans us from all unrighteousness." The bible also tells me in Romans 8:1: "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus..." And goes on to tell me in John 5:24: "...He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me hath everlasting life and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."

So by those passages why am i to expect to suffer pain I cant even comprehend in purgatory ? If that happens arent I experiencing Gods condemnation ? Romans 5:9 states that: "Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him." So if im saved from Gods wrath how am going to expercience it in purgatory ?

I am not saying I dont believe in purgatory. I am catholic and if the church says its real then I believe its real. I just would like to know what the official teaching of what its like is from the church ? I dont understand how so many of you who say you are practicing catholics act as if its a long shot for you to even make it their let alone Heaven.

I understand that one should be humble and work out his or her faith through fear and trembling. But on the other hand the bible assures us in Romans 10:9 , "If you confess with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved."

So I just dont understand how you can have such a gloom outlook on your salvation and expect so much pain and suffering in purgatory. Again though if purgatory is really that unimaginable pain then I guess I should brace myself for it and expect it. If this is the case though I dont understand why Christ had to be stonded to death on a cross if we are going to have to pay for our sins by extreme pain in purgatory anyways ?

Edited July 21, 2008 by saved by grace

[CatherineM]

I think a lot of us can just be kind of hard on ourselves. I don't truly believe that I will go to Hell. At least I hope not, and I try very hard to do the things I know I need to. I also don't expect to go to Heaven. I just try to do the best that I can, and surrender myself to Christ's mercy.

[Lounge Daddy]

For me, it's a "but for the Grace of God, there go I" kinda thing.

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote]QUOTE
1 corinthians 3
12 If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw,
13 the work of each will come to light, for the Day 7 will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire (itself) will test the quality of each one's work.
14 If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage.
15 But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, 8 but only as through fire.

Luke 12:41-48 [41] Peter asked, "Lord, are you telling this parable to us, or to everyone?" [42] The Lord answered, "Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom the master puts in charge of his servants to give them their food allowance at the proper time? [43] It will be good for that servant whom the master finds doing so when he returns. [44] I tell you the truth, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. [45] But suppose the servant says to himself, `My master is taking a long time in coming,' and he then begins to beat the menservants and maidservants and to eat and drink and get drunk. [46] The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers. [47] "That servant who knows his master's will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. [48] But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.[/quote]

how do you get blows in heaven, as per the second verse?
how do you suffer a loss and get purified by fire in heaven as per the first verse?
the catholic purgatory argument, makes the most sense.

[TeresaBenedicta]

I have hope that I will go to purgatory, if I'm not in a state of mortal sin.

[jmjtina]

[quote name='Lounge Daddy' post='1604900' date='Jul 21 2008, 08:36 PM']For me, it's a "but for the Grace of God, there go I" kinda thing.[/quote]


LOL!!! Bishop Fulton Sheen said the same thing!!!! Amen brotha!

[kujo]

I always feel like my sins are like dents and scratches on the body of a car. I can wash the car, get it detailed and painted, but the dent remains and will remain until they get banged out in purgatory...

[kujo]

I always feel like my sins are like dents and scratches on the body of a car. I can wash the car, get it detailed and painted, but the dent remains and will remain until they get banged out in purgatory...

[mortify]

Hey guys,

And kujo, brother that's a cool pic!

As to purgatory the issue is much deeper and I'm just beginning to understand it. You really need a proper understanding of justification, sanctification, forgiveness, and punishment (the parts I'm working on!) and then you'll understand purgatory. The false sense of justification that many people, particularly protestants, is that justification means Christ throwing a blanket on my dirty body, and overlooking my dirtiness. True justification isn't simply a blanket being thrown on you, but an actual inner renewal. In other words, its a conversion and transformation of your inner self, making you righteous. As for forgiveness, it doesn't always imply there will be no punishment, just like in the OT when someone committed a sin they were forgiven, but they still were punished. So there is a cooperation and participation that is necessary, God doesn't just do everything for us. We have our own cross to pick up, our own purgation to go threw. What we don't finish on earth, by the grace of God, we will finish in the hereafter otherwise few would make it to heaven!

And yes, purgatory is incredibly painful, there is nothing on earth than can compare to the pain of purgatory.

Hopefully someone more knowledgeable can elaborate!

[jmjtina]

More recommended readings: [url="http://www.phatmass.com/directory/search.php"]HERE[/url].

and more from [url="http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=213878&highlight=purgatory"]catholic.com. [/url]

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='mortify' post='1605000' date='Jul 22 2008, 01:30 AM']And yes, purgatory is incredibly painful, there is nothing on earth than can compare to the pain of purgatory.

Hopefully someone more knowledgeable can elaborate![/quote]

Could you elaborate on this statement? That's nowhere in public revelation, that I'm aware of.

Now, any kind of purging is by nature a painful experience, but there's a huuuuge Heaven-and-Hell difference between healing pain and torturous pain.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='saved by grace' post='1604771' date='Jul 21 2008, 08:05 PM']Hello.
I am a bit confused by the responces of catholics in the purgatory thread. What i take from it is that most of you expect hell but hope that by some long shot you can slide into purgatory and if you get there you expect to experience unimaginable pain for a really long time. Is this what the church teaches and am I as a catholic supposed to expect this ?[/quote]

No, this is not what the Church teaches. We believe, as you clearly know, that we are saved by grace alone. We do cooperate with grace to "work out our salvation with fear and trembling," but still it is grace that drives us, not our works.

Here is what the Church teaches about purgatory, straight from the Catechism, with some words I bolded for emphasis:

[quote]1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, [b]which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned[/b]. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.[/quote]

[quote]1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the "eternal punishment" of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the "temporal punishment" of sin. [b]These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God[/b] from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.[/quote]

[quote]1475 In the communion of saints, "a perennial link of charity exists between the faithful who have already reached their heavenly home, those who are expiating their sins in purgatory and those who are still pilgrims on earth. between them there is, too, an abundant exchange of all good things." In this wonderful exchange, the holiness of one profits others, well beyond the harm that the sin of one could cause others. Thus recourse to the communion of saints lets the contrite sinner be more promptly and efficaciously purified of the punishments for sin.[/quote]

[quote]1498 Through indulgences the faithful can obtain the remission of temporal punishment resulting from sin for themselves and also for the souls in Purgatory.[/quote]

That's every mention of the word "purgatory." Four paragraphs out of 2,865 (i.e. this is a true teaching, but it isn't a central issue to Catholicism like Christ, the sacraments, and proper devotion to Mary).

[quote name='saved by grace' post='1604771' date='Jul 21 2008, 08:05 PM']The bible tells me in 1 John 1:7: "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleans us from all unrighteousness." The bible also tells me in Romans 8:1: "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus..." And goes on to tell me in John 5:24: "...He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me hath everlasting life and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."[/quote]

Purgatory is part of the "cleanse us from all unrighteousness" that 1 John 1:7 is talking about. What cleansing does not occur in this life will occur before we enter Heaven. As for Romans 8:1 and John 5:24, Hell is condemnation, but purgatory is a cleansing for receiving the promise of salvation.

[quote name='saved by grace' post='1604771' date='Jul 21 2008, 08:05 PM']So by those passages why am i to expect to suffer pain I cant even comprehend in purgatory ? If that happens arent I experiencing Gods condemnation ? Romans 5:9 states that: "Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him." So if im saved from Gods wrath how am going to expercience it in purgatory ?[/quote]

The pain experienced in purgatory is a healing pain. It's painful because Christ is purging us for any unruly attachment to sin and worldly things, but it's healing because we need to be detached from sin to be fully alive.

[quote name='saved by grace' post='1604771' date='Jul 21 2008, 08:05 PM']I am not saying I dont believe in purgatory. I am catholic and if the church says its real then I believe its real. I just would like to know what the official teaching of what its like is from the church ? I dont understand how so many of you who say you are practicing catholics act as if its a long shot for you to even make it their let alone Heaven.[/quote]

And now you have the Catechism's instruction on purgatory without the medieval fairy tales.

Edited July 22, 2008 by LouisvilleFan

[Madame Vengier]

I truly believe that we are SUPPOSED to strive for Heaven. We are SUPPOSED to strive to be saints. I don't believe this is a far-fetched idea or some old-fashioned romantic notion. Holiness is not for the few. It's for you and for me. That's what Mother Teresa used to say all the time. I believe it is supposed to be part of real life. However, we have to acknowledge our weakness and know that we desperrately need mercy. I think we also want to keep our ego in check and maybe reminding ourselves that hell is a very real option is something we need to do for humility. But then we don't want to get all arrogant and ASSUME that we're worthy of Heaven, so Purgatory ends up being a natural diplomatic solution. But the reality is that we are not supposed to strive for Purgatory. We're supposed to strive for Heaven. It's just not that easy, is all.

[thessalonian]

I do not know how protestants can have the doctrine of imputed righteousness and yet deny purgatory. You cannot say I am covered by Christ's righteousness but not really righteous and have to be sanctified and then in another breath say I go straight to heaven with no purification any moment I die.

[Paddington]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1605105' date='Jul 22 2008, 11:57 AM']I do not know how protestants can have the doctrine of imputed righteousness and yet deny purgatory.[/quote]

In my experience, a Protestant believes people are all extremely corrupt . Then, if they convert, they get this extremely saintly nature that lives in them with the extremely corrupt nature, like 2 twins in a womb. There life is a struggle between good and evil (unlike unbelievers who are just evil.) So when death comes, the evil nature just falls off. The good nature would remain and would not be challenged anymore.