Purity And Vocations

[Beatus]

+JMJ
I decided to start a new thread because this is different than my own situation with my own personal vocation. I have received a lot of PM's (which I now know what they are) and I have to be honest in saying that the majority of them are very negative. I think some people have written with the best intentions and most likely think they are doing me a favor, as in helping me not embarrass myself further (yes, someone wrote that), but whatever the case they have not helped. Another person asked me to stop posting.
So, rather than answer each person, I thought I would just bring this out into the open and see what the group as a whole has to say, because, now truthfully, I am as confused as ever.
As I have mentioned repeatedly, my whole interest in protecting my Virginity came about because of the Consecrated Virgin thread.
I was going to make a really long post, using quotes and actual comments, but I decided against it because I know, after reading all of the answers I got, it just gets confusing.
The bottom line is this. If a WOMAN has to be a VIRGIN in order to receive the Consecration, and that is NOT even a Sacrament, then what about a man? How can the rules apply to one thing and then not to another?
To be totally honest, I spent this afternoon with my priest, who actually agrees with me and thinks, respectfully, that our Pastor is nuts. BUT. He did say, let's look at this from another perspective so we can examine and see where other thinking is coming from. Good idea.
Ok. A woman, who does not receive a Sacrament when she receives the Rite of Consecration, but just gets an elevated blessing, has to be a PHYSICAL Virgin in order to receive this Rite in the Church, which again, is below a Sacrament, how can we, for one moment, think that a man does not have that same responsibility? Do you see where this is going? If a woman can be denied the opportunity to receive the Consecration because of suspicion, what about men? What about suspicion for them?
Ok. We talked about saints who were sinners. Paul, as an example. They sinned before they knew Christ and the true teachings of the Church. They have an excuse. We do we have the true teachings of the Church, and we know better. Now we are getting done to good old fashioned discipline, as Father said.
THe thread on Consecrated Virgins proved that women cannot receive it unless they are truly Virgins. It was pointed out repeatedly that women who are not virgins are not able to give their all to God if they don't have their all to give. A priest has to be able to give his all. And more.
I no longer want to engage in social functions with girls/women because I already know that I am going to be a religious, and I have no use for women. I suspect that God is indeed calling me to a monastic community and I am sure I will not encounter women there.
I believe everything that was written (not the stuff that was just complaints and people being mean about the Church) in the Consecrated Virginity thread because it was backed up by saints, quotes and other important means of proving stuff. The people who didn't agree, interestingly had "friends, experiences, whatever." They didn't have the Church on their side. They didn't have facts, just stories and opinions.
For those of you who think that I am too black and white or whatever else you think, why do you think that? Isn't there such a thing as truth and then a thing that is not truth?
Yes, I panicked when I realized I was on the wrong path and that I jeopardized my purity by fantasizing and other things. Yes, I realized that I had put my reputation on the block and that I had caused the possibility of scandal and perhaps even some kind of suspicion about my good name. Again, these points are in the Consecration thread.
Finally, the moderators spoke and did not close it or make any changes. They clearly know more than we do and they are in a position to be the voices of authority. So, all around, authority has spoken, and still I am persecuted.
I am not giving up my fight. I am under assault by the evils of the world. I don't believe that having interaction with women, who tend to lead to temptation is a good idea. When I enter religious life, I want to be pure, I want to be able to give all to God, I want to be RIGHT. This was clearly expressed and the thinking explained in the other thread.
How can somebody tell me to stop posting about purity and encouraging chastity when that is what the Church teaches? Should I stop picketing at the Abortion Mill in my city? Should I stop handing out Rosaries when I encounter someone of another (wrong and misguided) faith? Should I give up on one of my classmates who is headed to hell because he has announced he has unnatural desires? He believes God made him that way. There is help for him, and as I pray for him, I also make the time to make sure he has access to pamphlets and brochures about the rehab centers. Should I stop kneeling in front of the Blessed Sacrament? Should I tell the nuns who are not wearing the habit, as JP THE GREAT told them to, that they look great? Should I forget my patron saint and not celebrate his Feast Day? Should I ignore the Pope's intentions? Should I take down my home altar?
The enemy is clearly lurking, ready to pounce. Why not help others with this struggle? Now that I know that women are involved in the filthy practice of self abuse, why not talk about it and encourage them to STOP? Why are people trying to make me water down my faith?
MY priest said today that there is a reason we are called Soldiers of Christ. He said the battle wages on and we must never stop fighting. He was very serious. He too told me not to be afraid, which I am no longer. I have my Rosary (blessed by JP the Great) and I have a big bottle of Holy Water. I am ready.
If someone, a woman or a man, is seriously considering the Religious Life, aren't they supposed to be living as Catholics? How can someone be living as a Catholic when they have stains like what was discussed in the Consecrated Virgin thread? If Confession, as someone else suggested, wiped all those sins away, then non-Virgins would be allowed to participate in the Rite.
Thanks. It is time for me to go to bed. I will pray for all you, but most especially to those of you who wrote me such mean and hurtful emails.
Pax,
Beatus

[TeresaBenedicta]

Beatus,

First-- praise God for your desire to be pure in order to give yourself completely to God. That is something to give thanks and praise for, you are certainly on the right track.

There are two parts of your post that I'd like to reply to, the first being your question about the differences between consecrated Virgins and priests/monastic brothers. I'm not an expert in this area. It seems to me, however, that virginity (physical and otherwise) is essential to the vows of a consecrated virgin. After all, they [i]are[/i] consecrating themselves [i]as[/i] virgins. It is inherent to that vocation and to the consecration itself. On the other hand, religious brothers and sisters (who can be accepted as non-virgins) instead make a vow of chastity. This is different than virginity. Chastity is the committal to the state of life that you are in-- so for the religious, that would mean that they cannot have sex. But virginity is not inherent or necessary for the vow of chastity. With consecrated virgins, it is inherent in their consecration. It would be me guess that if someone is not a virgin, that they are not called to be a consecrated virgin, even if they have ammended their lives. Does this make sense?

Second, I'd like to share a story often told by Christopher West. There were two bishops walking down a back alley when they came across a prostitute who was dressed in a scandalous outfit. One of the bishops quickly averted his eyes, so as to not be tempted. The other bishop looked upon the woman with pity. Which bishop remained chaste? The answer is simple: both. The first bishop knew that he was easily tempted, therefore he needed to avert his eyes to avoid the near occasion of sin. The second bishop, however, had grown past and was not tempted by the woman, therefore able to look on her with pity, rather than look at her as an object.

What I mean to say is that the opposite sex is not inherently evil, nor are they intended to be occasions of sin. God made male and female and they are both good. God made Eve to be company for Adam. Men and women were meant to be together.

That said, you and your priest know best what will be a near occasion for you. If even being in the presence of a woman is a temptation for you, then perhaps it is best that you forgoe contact with women. However, simply being in the presence of women is not sinful nor harmful to your purity in and of itself. Just keep that in mind as well.

Talk with your priest and work something out with him that is best for you. Stay strong and continue to fight the good fight.

[alicemary]

I really am having alot of trouble believing the integrity of this and find it quite troubling. If you are serious in your comments, then by all means, you need some counseling. And quick. Forgive my bluntness, but you certainly have some major issues that need to be addressed. This is far above religion or your quest for holiness.
Jesus walked the earth. He loved people and had friends. One of His closest followers was a whore. At a wedding feast they ran out of wine and He provided it. Does not sound like a man who did not love people.
You are too tied up in your own too narrow world. Kindly get some help. I don't want to hear from others that this is anyway 'normal' thinking, it is not. I have tried not to say anything, and moderators forgive me, but I do not believe these comments are anything but truthful, though I admit blunt.

[CatherineM]

I don't find anything wrong with you wanting to remain a virgin, and do not think you are certifiable for wanting to maintain your purity. I was a virgin for 43 years before marrying, so I obviously think it is worth the effort.

We had a consecration here a couple of months ago. It was a woman who is a chaplain part time, and teaches at the seminary I attend. She was consecrated Single, not a consecrated virgin. She said that she wanted to emphasize the vocation and not the sexual aspect, but many people felt that she was simply not a virgin, but still willing to devote her life to service to the church and obedience to our Archbishop. There are many priests and nuns who aren't virgins, but many that are.

The bottom line is that this is your gift from God, and only you get to choose who you give this gift to. If it is to the church, then we are all the better for it. People told me I was stupid for waiting and maintaining mine. They were wrong. Listen to the people who actually know you there. It sounds like you have a good spiritual adviser. His advice is worth more than mine or anyone else here.

[Saint Therese]

This is disturbing, on so many levels.
No matter how "pure" one might be, one can never escape his/her sinful nature. It something that all people have and must struggle to overcome.
Jesus said (paraphrased) its not what enters a man that makes him unclean but what comes from his heart!!
Do NOT think that if you enter the priesthood, or monastic life you will escape from sinners or sin, or from your baser self. Indeed you will find it all the more glaring there.
God bless you.

[jkaands]

[quote name='Beatus' post='1603854' date='Jul 20 2008, 01:03 AM']... Should I stop picketing at the Abortion Mill in my city? Should I stop handing out Rosaries when I encounter someone of another (wrong and misguided) faith? Should I give up on one of my classmates who is headed to hell because he has announced he has unnatural desires? He believes God made him that way. There is help for him, and as I pray for him, I also make the time to make sure he has access to pamphlets and brochures about the rehab centers. Should I stop kneeling in front of the Blessed Sacrament? Should I tell the nuns who are not wearing the habit, as JP THE GREAT told them to, that they look great? Should I forget my patron saint and not celebrate his Feast Day? Should I ignore the Pope's intentions? Should I take down my home altar?
The enemy is clearly lurking, ready to pounce. Why not help others with this struggle? Now that I know that women are involved in the filthy practice of self abuse, why not talk about it and encourage them to STOP? Why are people trying to make me water down my faith? I have my Rosary (blessed by JP the Great) and I have a big bottle of Holy Water. I am ready.

If someone, a woman or a man, is seriously considering the Religious Life, aren't they supposed to be living as Catholics? How can someone be living as a Catholic when they have stains like what was discussed in the Consecrated Virgin thread? If Confession, as someone else suggested, wiped all those sins away, then non-Virgins would be allowed to participate in the Rite.

Pax,
Beatus[/quote]


Oh, boy.

I think that the Consecr Virgin thread was terminated, if it was, because you hijacked it. CV is after all, about [i]female[/i] virginal consecration.

Re:
I no longer want to engage in social functions with girls/women because I already know that I am going to be a religious, and I have no use for women. I suspect that God is indeed calling me to a monastic community and I am sure I will not encounter women there."

. Believe me, in a monastic community, you will encounter women. LOTS of them. IF you are a priest and even if not, there will be a lot who you think are inappropriately dressed. Padre Pio to the contrary, most monastics do not yell at them and tell them to get out.

Your determine to butt into the private affairs of your fellow-students and others does not witness for the church. by all means, picket the 'abortion mill'. But DON'T hand out rosaries to the unsuspecting or lecture people who are (probably) trying to bait you with their views. Pul-lease don't hand out the brochures. He knows where to get them if he's interested. A simple "I don't agree" and walk away will suffice. Don't haul out your inflatable soap box and start preaching. You accomplish nothing and subject yourself to ridicule. Don't buttonhole nuns about their dress. It's none of their business. They know their rule and their foundress's intentions a lot better than you do. And for your information (for the nth time on this forum) JP II in his Post-Synodal Apostolic Exhortation, Vita Consecrata, section 25, published on March 25, 1996, exhorted the following:

"Since the habit is a sign of consecration, poverty and membership in a particular Religious family, I join the Fathers of the Synod in strongly recommending to men and women religious that they wear their proper habit, [i]suitably adapted to the conditions of time and place.[/i] Where valid reasons of their apostolate call for it, Religious, in conformity with the norms of their Institute, may also dress in a simple and modest manner, with an appropriate symbol, in such a way that their consecration is recognizable. Institutes [i]which from their origin or by provision of their Constitutions do not have a specific habit should ensure that the dress of their members corresponds in dignity and simplicity to the nature of their vocation.[/i]" (emphasis mine). Many, indeed most orders of women were formed to address the needs of the poor and in particular wanted to dress like them, in contrast to the garb of the day for gentlewomen. In the past, the chief distinctions among social groups was through dress. Apostolic groups of woman wanted to avoid this and many still do. If this means polyester pants suits, then so be it. You have no business proclaiming your views to the world if no one is asking to hear them.

You can practice all of your observances to your heart's content. Just don't butt into other people's practices.

I think that you could use counseling--you sound as if you [i]are[/i] in a state of panic. Do you think that temptations will magically disappear when you enter?

In addition to your priest friend, you might try to find a spiritual director, preferably a religious in habit of course, maybe affiliated with an order you are thinking about entering. Or a psychologist used to counseling members of religious orders. Unfortunately, these people are hard to find.

[Luigi]

Chastity is good. All Christians are called to live chaste lives, before and after marriage, and sometimes during, too.

Chastity is a clear example of self-control - in many ways, the toughest kind of self control (although people addicted to tobacco, drugs, or gambling might quibble with me here). God created our bodies and their appetites for sex, food, drink, sleep, and so forth. We are all called to control our appetites so that we can better devote our bodies and energies to doing God's will/work.

Sex is not something to be feared, or even shunned - again, it was God in His infinite wisdom who designed our bodies, and those of all living creatures, to include sex. Sex is, however, something that must be understood, as the first step toward controlling it within ourselves. Because it is such a primal, vital part of our essences, it sometimes takes a long time to understand and then control. Many people make mistakes in the process of coming to understand sex - whether within or without themselves. If those mistakes are conscious decisions to choose the bad over the good, then they are sins, but not necessarily otherwise. And God is merciful enough to forgive our mistakes, even if they are serious sins.

Pray to the Holy Spirit for the gifts of knowledge, understanding, wisdom. Use your very capable brain to read, talk to experts, and learn about sex. Everything you encounter will raise questions in your mind about how it applies to you, how you choose to use the information, how you want to incorporate it into your life, and so forth. What I mean is, understanding and controlling one's own sexuality is not an intellectual pursuit alone - it also involves virtue, character development, emotional maturity, and so forth - in short, holiness. Anything God created can be holy if properly understood and properly used.

My larger concern is your statement that "I have no use for women." I'm willing to suppose that you wrote this in haste and without much reflection, but I still want to address it.

You'd better thank God every day for women. Unless I am very much mistaken, it was a woman who bore you, nursed you through your childhood illnesses, feeds you, launders your clothing, taught you your prayers, and probably cleans up after you. Do you have any grandmothers? Sisters? Aunts? Female cousins? Female teachers? Do you know any women religious? Nurses? Do your friends have mothers? Were Mary, Elizabeth, Mary Magdalen, Martha, Judith, Esther, Sarah, Scholastica, Jane de Chantal, and Mother Theresa women? Did they serve God in the way they were called to? If so, theen we need to thank God for their ministry and their example. Many religious orders have male and female branches, and others have close ties to each other (Order of St. Francis de Sales and the Visitations). Women are as fully human as men; they are the near occasion of sin only to people who have not come to understand and control their desires or who treat them as objects for their own satisfaction rather than as children of God. If you regard women as temptations, then they will be temptations to you; if you regard them as children of God, then they need not be temptations to you. Women are as much a part of the Christian community as men, and we in the Christian community are to minister to each other - men to women and women to men. Men and women are more similar than they are different. To disregard or denigrate half (or slightly more) of the people that God has created is a massive sin against charity - and here, I mean charity in the most basic sense of the word, seeing our connectedness to each other.

Again, pray to the Holy Spirit for knowledge, understanding, and wisdom. Your heart is in the right place, your motives are good, but you are sorely lacking in factual foundation - perhaps not to be wondered at given your age. Start doing your homework on this topic and you'll eventually come to a more thorough theologically complete view.

[Rising_Suns]

Ave Maria.

It may do some people well to remember that Beatus is a 14-year-old young man, and should be responded to with a certain sensitivity and patience that would not warrant otherwise. It is pressumed that most of us here are adults, and can avoid haste judgment in our responses.

It is not uncommon to have high ideals at age 14 (what [i]is[/i] uncommon--and what Beatus should be commended on--is to have high ideals ordered towards God). We might recall Our Lord had high ideals also; [i]"If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off."[/i] [i]"it is better to be hot or cold than to be lukewarm. So because you are lukewarm I will vomit you from my mouth."[/i] This part of the gospel is often forgotten, especially in a society today full of indifference and complacency.

The underlying theme behind Beatus' posts should be commended. If there is disagreement on the finer points, forgive me for saying, but it might be more prudent to guide with a gentle hand. It is not everyday that a father laughs in his child's face because of holy desires. If only more young people had such strong desires, this world would have many more holy Saints.

[indent][b]Lukewarm Souls, according to Satan[/b]
"On one occasion, I saw Satan hurrying about and looking for someone among the sisters, but he could find no one. I felt an interior inspiration to command him in the Name of God to confess to me what he was looking for among the sisters. And he confessed, though unwillingly, "I am looking for idle souls (Si. 33:28; pr. 12:11)." [u][b]When I commanded him again in the Name of God to tell me to which souls in the religious life he has the easiest access, he said, again unwillingly, "To lazy and idle souls"[/b][/u]. I took note of the fact that, at present, there were no such souls in this house. Let the toiling and tired souls rejoice." - Diary of Saint Faustina[/indent]

Edited July 21, 2008 by Rising_Suns

[TotusTuusMaria]

[quote name='Rising_Suns' post='1604165' date='Jul 20 2008, 07:42 PM']Ave Maria.

It may do some people well to remember that Beatus is a 14-year-old young man, and should be responded to with a certain sensitivity and patience that would not warrant otherwise. It is pressumed that most of us here are adults, and can avoid haste judgment in our responses.

It is not uncommon to have high ideals at age 14 (what [i]is[/i] uncommon--and what Beatus should be commended on--is to have high ideals ordered towards God). We might recall Our Lord had high ideals also; [i]"If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off."[/i] [i]"it is better to be hot or cold than to be lukewarm. So because you are lukewarm I will vomit you from my mouth."[/i] This part of the gospel is often forgotten, especially in a society today full of indifference and complacency.

The underlying theme behind Beatus' posts should be commended. If there is disagreement on the finer points, forgive me for saying, but it might be more prudent to guide with a gentle hand. It is not everyday that a father laughs in his child's face because of holy desires. If only more young people had such strong desires, this world would have many more holy Saints.

[indent][b]Lukewarm Souls, according to Satan[/b]
"On one occasion, I saw Satan hurrying about and looking for someone among the sisters, but he could find no one. I felt an interior inspiration to command him in the Name of God to confess to me what he was looking for among the sisters. And he confessed, though unwillingly, "I am looking for idle souls (Si. 33:28; pr. 12:11)." [u][b]When I commanded him again in the Name of God to tell me to which souls in the religious life he has the easiest access, he said, again unwillingly, "To lazy and idle souls"[/b][/u]. I took note of the fact that, at present, there were no such souls in this house. Let the toiling and tired souls rejoice." - Diary of Saint Faustina[/indent][/quote]

Very true, Rising Sun.

[quote]It may do some people well to remember that Beatus is a 14-year-old young man, and should be responded to with a certain sensitivity and patience that would not warrant otherwise. It is pressumed that most of us here are adults, and can avoid haste judgment in our responses.[/quote]

Very, very, very true.

Thank you for posting those reminders to us all.

Ave Maria.

Edited July 21, 2008 by TotusTuusMaria

[Lil Red]

+J.M.J.+
temporarily closed while under moderators' review.