Hell

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Paddington' post='1603217' date='Jul 19 2008, 03:35 AM']But....nobody would prefer Hell to annihilation, would they?[/quote]
Hell is a kingdom of one's own making.

[fides quarens intellectum]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1603433' date='Jul 19 2008, 01:37 PM']Hell is a kingdom of one's own making.[/quote]

Like [i]Second Life[/i], then?

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1602554' date='Jul 18 2008, 12:58 AM']I was reading a Muslim author[/quote]

Of course you were.

[Balthazor]

[quote name='fides quarens intellectum' post='1603442' date='Jul 19 2008, 02:47 PM']Like [i]Second Life[/i], then?[/quote]

[Phazzan]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1602876' date='Jul 18 2008, 04:44 PM']Hell is actually loving. It would be rape for God to force someone to live with him for all eternity who does not love him.[/quote]

Hell is loving? What a stupid stupid comment. Probably one of the dumbest things I've ever read. It's comments like these that expose the fragility of rationalising a place like hell with the concept of an all loving, just god.

No one consciously chooses an eternity of pain and suffering over an eternity of bliss. Most people think they're either going to heaven or that no such place exists. Therefore god would not be punishing wilful disobedience, but ignorance, in which case the punishment would be cruel, sadistic and unjust..

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Phazzan' post='1604344' date='Jul 21 2008, 04:50 AM']Hell is loving? What a stupid stupid comment. Probably one of the dumbest things I've ever read. It's comments like these that expose the fragility of rationalising a place like hell with the concept of an all loving, just god.

No one consciously chooses an eternity of pain and suffering over an eternity of bliss. Most people think they're either going to heaven or that no such place exists. Therefore god would not be punishing wilful disobedience, but ignorance, in which case the punishment would be cruel, sadistic and unjust..[/quote]

God gives us what we desire for eternity. That's why Hell is a product of love, because He doesn't force us into Heaven, but allows us to choose to be with Him out of our free will. But, you can have it your way, if you wish.

[StColette]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1602905' date='Jul 18 2008, 06:26 PM']Well said! In Byzantine theology hell is a form of salvation, i.e., it is salvation from the principle of non-being introduced into creation by the ancestral sin of Adam.[/quote]

That's very interesting.

[Phazzan]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1604486' date='Jul 21 2008, 11:28 AM']God gives us what we desire for eternity. That's why Hell is a product of love, because He doesn't force us into Heaven, but allows us to choose to be with Him out of our free will. But, you can have it your way, if you wish.[/quote]

LOL, insane. No one desires hell, are you too daft to comprehend that? No one consciously decides they would rather burn in hell than spend eternity with god. If we truly had free will, we'd be able to make that choice based on love, not fear.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Phazzan' post='1604511' date='Jul 21 2008, 02:04 PM']LOL, insane. No one desires hell, are you too daft to comprehend that? No one consciously decides they would rather burn in hell than spend eternity with god. If we truly had free will, we'd be able to make that choice based on love, not fear.[/quote]

Of course nobody desires Hell. That's why everybody is trying to get out of it.

To clarify, I'm not talking about that silly image of Hell with Satan, his pitchfork, and flames burning up doctors and lawyers dancing on the skulls of priests (that last part is referencing a St. John Chrysostom quote). The Hell I'm talking about is something we all experience a foretaste of in this life: the Hell of loneliness, hopelessness, of not being loved for who we are, or the shame and harm that results from being used by another (especially someone we thought loved us). Many people do consciously decide they would rather loath in self-pity, remain lonely, hopeless, and refuse to give or receive true love than to risk giving of themselves. Like Julius Caesar, we all have some fatal flaw (or several) that will do us in, and we're all seeking acceptance and love because inside we all know love is the solution to that nagging flaw.

In short, while Hell in the next life may be a physical reality, in this life it is usually more psychological/spiritual, just as a foretaste of Heaven is mostly psychological in the experience of true love.

[Paddington]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1604548' date='Jul 21 2008, 04:24 PM']Of course nobody desires Hell. That's why everybody is trying to get out of it.[/quote]

Nobody has ever convinced me otherwise.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Paddington' post='1604579' date='Jul 21 2008, 03:44 PM']Nobody has ever convinced me otherwise.[/quote]

What do you mean? From the context of my post, it seems like you're saying nobody has convinced you that everybody is seeking love and acceptance.

Edited July 21, 2008 by LouisvilleFan

[Paddington]

That either.

I just believe that people don't want to go to or remain in Hell. I don't mean that they want Heaven.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Paddington' post='1604627' date='Jul 21 2008, 04:46 PM']That either.

I just believe that people don't want to go to or remain in Hell. I don't mean that they want Heaven.[/quote]

Of course... who would?

And you don't believe virtually everyone seeks love and acceptance? What do you think gay pride parades are about?

[Balthazor]

Speaking as a natural instigator that likes to shake things up.

Sometimes the motivation for our actions is not love or acceptance, but rather just because we like to instigate. I mean I have a lot of fu with the Jehovah's witnesses that knock on my door. I would like to say it is love that is my full and honest motivation. But in the background there is that natural tendancy to instigate trouble.

Please do not take me as a typical Catholic, (or a typical human) I am quite strange in my rational for doing things. But the comment on the gay pride parade just lead me to point this out. If I were gay I would probably march not so much because I wanted love and acceptance, but because it shook up things.

[Balthazor]

As for Hell.
I think that everyone has a different idea of hell.
In my mind Hell is simply the deprivation of God, just like cold is simply the lack of warmth.

For me a place without God's love is the worst place imaginable. For those of us who choose to reject God, hell is real. We naturally long to be with God, and separation from Him is torture to a soul.

In Complete honesty, the fear of a classical hell does not usually even cross my mind. When I am in Mortal sin I go to confession more because my heart is in such pain because of the distance and the barrier that I have set up between God and I can not bear it to remain.

Heaven on the other hand is to me the fulfillment of a lifetime of longing, for that aching to rejoin God to be quenched in the ecstasy of His love.

I think that some of us are more sensitive than others to this feeling of longing for God or being able to feel the separation from God. But for those that do not believe that God is real or true let me say this. When you do something kind, something selfless that helps another no matter how large or small, that feeling of joy that you recieve from that selfless action is the feeling of becoming closer to complete communion with God. If you can imagine a place where this kindness, selflessness and love does not exist.... that is hell.
In this way we bring hell upon ourselves. Our kind and loving God gives us ample motivation to join with Him, and I think that it takes a very persistantly stubborn person to resist the call to goodness and dare I say holiness.