Hell

[Hassan]

How is hell reconciled with a just or loving God?
I was reading a Muslim author and he pointed to the remedial nature of hell (In some strains of Islamic thought, such as his), that hell was more purgatorial then pure damnation. He noted that no concept of eternal, senseless torment could be reconciled with a just and loving God.
I agree fully (If I believe in hell), if there were some remedial nature to it and the descriptions of torment were simply metaphors of the intensity of the clensing then perhaps there is some justification to it.
But eternal hell, a hell where no redemption is possible and the intense torment ceaseless for all eternity seems like utter sadism.

Edited July 18, 2008 by Hassan

[puellapaschalis]

Isn't Hell self-inflicted? People choose Hell by not choosing God. My undergraduate chaplain used to say that the handle on the door to Hell is on the inside, but no-one wants to leave, because no-one in there wants to be with God.

[Winchester]

I don't think saying Hell is self-inflicted can rid someone of misgivings about Hell.

There are some things to which one must simply surrender trust and admit their limits as humans. Hell is one of those for a lot of people. I don't have an answer beyond that it's our choice whether we go to Heaven or Hell, and God is all just and all merciful, so it's obviously appropriate.

[Hassan]

[quote name='puellapaschalis' post='1602577' date='Jul 18 2008, 03:56 AM']Isn't Hell self-inflicted? People choose Hell by not choosing God. My undergraduate chaplain used to say that the handle on the door to Hell is on the inside, but no-one wants to leave, because no-one in there wants to be with God.[/quote]

but the Church teaches that a single mortal sin is damnation. I know people who are in mortal sin, they don't deserve hell. IF the handle of the door is really on the inside then why does the Church claim that damnation is eternal and final? The New Testament depicts Christ banishing the damned. They even protest their judgement. They ask to know when they refused Christ drink hen he was thirsty, he says that when they turned away others they turned away him, and then tells them to go away from him.

[StColette]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1602783' date='Jul 18 2008, 02:01 PM']but the Church teaches that a single mortal sin is damnation. I know people who are in mortal sin, they don't deserve hell.[/quote]

A single mortal sin, without being confessed and being contrite over, is cause for damnation. God doesn't want to send those He created and love to Hell, they send themselves. And my meaning by send themselves, is that often times God is trying to reach out His infinite mercy toward them in order that they may seek forgiveness, often times people refuse to accept this mercy out of pride and sometimes out of guilt. God cannot force us to do anything. He cannot force us to ask for forgiveness.

I have many friends that live really distructive lives, and I pray for them constantly especially for the conversion of their souls to God. It's sad to watch those you love and care for waste themselves away on things that don't matter such as alcohol, drugs, etc. We must also take into account that even though we, personally, know something to be a mortal sin, those friends of ours may not know that they are. If they are unaware of something being a mortal sin and do not know any better then they aren't in a state of mortal sin. Does that make sense? For instance, many people don't know that the Church teaches that masturbation is a mortal sin. When one is made aware of this it doesn't mean that your past actions were mortal sins (most likely venial sins) because you did not have full awareness of it being a sin. Full awareness of something being a sin is needed for something to be considered a mortal sin.

I do not wish hell on anyone, least of all any of my friends. I can't judge where anyone should go because well I'm not God, none of us are. We don't want our friends or family members to go to hell because we care for them and we know them to be good people, but that's not enough. If they've rejected the love and mercy of God then the choice has been their's as to what their fate in the afterlife is.

[quote]IF the handle of the door is really on the inside then why does the Church claim that damnation is eternal and final?[/quote]

I believe what picchick was meaning is sorta how the Church speaks of the devil and the other fallen angels. Out of pride they will never seek the forgiveness of God, thus they will beaver dam themselves forever, this is why pride is considered the gravest of sins, because it is the beginning of all sin.

[quote]The New Testament depicts Christ banishing the damned. They even protest their judgement. They ask to know when they refused Christ drink hen he was thirsty, he says that when they turned away others they turned away him, and then tells them to go away from him.[/quote]

Who wouldn't protest their own judgment? lol I mean seriously I don't know anyone who would be quick to condemn themselves without understanding why. The Christian message is very simple, you know the golden rule, "to love thy neighbor as thyself." That's why those people were damned, because they did not reach out to those who were in need, when they themselves were capable of doing so. They did not treat their neighbors as they themselves would have liked to be treated.

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1602783' date='Jul 18 2008, 01:01 PM']but the Church teaches that a single mortal sin is damnation. [b]I know people who are in mortal sin, they don't deserve hell. [/b] IF the handle of the door is really on the inside then why does the Church claim that damnation is eternal and final? The New Testament depicts Christ banishing the damned. They even protest their judgement. They ask to know when they refused Christ drink hen he was thirsty, he says that when they turned away others they turned away him, and then tells them to go away from him.[/quote]


In response to what I placed in bold lettering:

This is why God is the judge and we humans aren't. We can't really say who's deserving of hell and who isn't. You are not God. You cannot judge people. They don't deserve hell in your eyes, but you cannot see everything as God sees.

God IS merciful. God IS JUST. He wouldn't be a JUST God if He didn't have a punishment for sins. God is merciful, in that people have a whole lifetime to follow Him. He gives us time to choose right from wrong. He gives us a Holy Church to direct us. It is our problem if we don't live as we should.

[BlueRose]

Here's a scenario:

My mom used the pill for many years, fully aware that it was considered a sin. And she does not regret her decision to do so. So my Mom is going to hell, correct?

And my Grandfather, the kindest man on the planet, was raised Catholic but chooses to no longer go to Mass. I would assume he is also going to hell?

[thessalonian]

Hell is actually loving. It would be rape for God to force someone to live with him for all eternity who does not love him.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='BlueRose' post='1602862' date='Jul 18 2008, 05:09 PM']Here's a scenario:

My mom used the pill for many years, fully aware that it was considered a sin. And she does not regret her decision to do so. So my Mom is going to hell, correct?

And my Grandfather, the kindest man on the planet, was raised Catholic but chooses to no longer go to Mass. I would assume he is also going to hell?[/quote]

Such judgements are left to God. Their condition is certainly serious but we leave it to him. We must pray for their repentence!

[Selah]

No one can say. Actually, no one is allowed to say, for that would be the sin of presumption...not to mention wrong to assume someone knows your eternal destiny.

God is a God of justice, but he is also a God of compassion and love. He could show them mercy if he chose to. I think I heard somewhere, it was pertaining to the Divine Mercy...that before we die, Jesus calls our name three times...correct me if I am wrong, guys

Now, do you mean the abortion pill or a birth control pill? From there I can give you my answer.

Also, the reason missing mass is considered so grave is because during mass, we partake of the Eucharist. Missing something like that, unless under different circumstances, is very serious.

Like I said, no one knows. The ways of God are mysterious. He is just but also loving as well.

[Deb]

[quote name='BlueRose' post='1602862' date='Jul 18 2008, 05:09 PM']Here's a scenario:

My mom used the pill for many years, fully aware that it was considered a sin. And she does not regret her decision to do so. So my Mom is going to hell, correct?

And my Grandfather, the kindest man on the planet, was raised Catholic but chooses to no longer go to Mass. I would assume he is also going to hell?[/quote]

If your mother sinned with full awareness and does not seek absolution with a contrite heart, then she has made the decision as to where she goes if she dies with mortal sin. If your grandather has chosen to abandon the Catholic faith and does not repent, he is making his decision as to where he goes. But, because we are not God and only God knows what is truly in our hearts, we can't determine their fate. Maybe they go to purgatory for ten zillion years. Maybe not. They surely won't have a straight ticket to heaven. I don't think very many do, especially and including myself.
We cannot also determine that they won't request confession and absolution before they die. Many, many wait untiil that time is emminent. God will know at that time if their repentence is due to fear or true knowledge of their sins and wish to be reconciled with God.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1602876' date='Jul 18 2008, 03:44 PM']Hell is actually loving. It would be rape for God to force someone to live with him for all eternity who does not love him.[/quote]
Well said! In Byzantine theology hell is a form of salvation, i.e., it is salvation from the principle of non-being introduced into creation by the ancestral sin of Adam.

Ultimately, the eternal end of each man, whether it be ever-well-being or ever-ill-being, is left to the power of his own free will as he acts in cooperation with God's uncreated energy, or in opposition to it.

Edited July 18, 2008 by Apotheoun

[Paddington]

But....nobody would prefer Hell to annihilation, would they?

And...would God prefer annihilating a sinner to banishing him to Hell?

[Winchester]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1602783' date='Jul 18 2008, 02:01 PM']but the Church teaches that a single mortal sin is damnation. I know people who are in mortal sin, they don't deserve hell. IF the handle of the door is really on the inside then why does the Church claim that damnation is eternal and final? The New Testament depicts Christ banishing the damned. They even protest their judgement. They ask to know when they refused Christ drink hen he was thirsty, he says that when they turned away others they turned away him, and then tells them to go away from him.[/quote]
The church teaches that there are certain things that are mortal sins, but culpability for them is another issue.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Paddington' post='1603217' date='Jul 19 2008, 03:35 AM']...would God prefer annihilating a sinner to banishing him to Hell?[/quote]
No, because God would be allowing evil if He were to permit creation to fall into non-being, since evil has no essential being, and that kind of action (even understood passively) is contrary to His nature.

Hell is merciful.