Is It Wrong For Gay/lesbian Couples To Adopt?

[Socrates]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' post='1623530' date='Aug 10 2008, 01:25 PM']What do you think "being in [i]Communion[/i] with Rome" means?
Failing to find a paragraph in the catechism, I'll give you an article from Archbishop Pell of Sydney:
[url="http://www.tldm.org/News4/Pell.htm"]http://www.tldm.org/News4/Pell.htm[/url] (the article is actually pretty pertinent to the matter at hand)[/quote]


[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' post='1623535' date='Aug 10 2008, 01:30 PM']Here's an even better one, from Then-Cardinal Ratzinger:
[url="http://www.tldm.org/news6/Ratzinger.htm"]http://www.tldm.org/news6/Ratzinger.htm[/url][/quote]
Just a note, while the words from the Pope quoted are certainly valid, you might try to find them on another website (such as Catholic World News, the source quoted), rather than that "Bayside" site.
The bogus Bayside "apparitions" are croutons. Holy Balls of Redemption!

[Vincent Vega]

Haha, yes, I noticed that that site was a little...off. But Pell and Pope Benedict are pretty orthodox guys (you think? ), so I thought their words were still valid. But yes, I would warn against putting any faith in the other stuff on their site.

[mortify]

[quote name='Kitty' post='1623511' date='Aug 10 2008, 01:04 PM']I do not ever recall hearing that you had to agree with every church teaching in order to receive communion. I have only heard that you must be in a state of grace and free from mortal sin.[/quote]

You *can't* be in a state of grace and consciously reject what the Church teaches.

[quote]Is my freedom of thought a mortal sin?[/quote]


Do you remember what you said? You said not even the Church could change your opinion about homosexual marriage. That's a bold statement! What is Church teaching based on? What God has revealed. Has homosexuality always been considered contrary to natural law and a sin? Yes, so the Church is bound to DEFEND this teaching. If you decide to break from this teaching then so be it, we all make our own choices but beware of the consequences. And yes, there are consequences for adopting the ways of the world when they contradict God's teaching.

I understand this is difficult, everyone of us is a modern by default and our minds have been influenced by our society. Sometimes we think we have freely come to certain conclusions when in fact they were slowly instilled over many years. It has become so bad that even the ways of God have become strange to us, but this is not an excuse, we must do what we can to adopt a Catholic mindset. If we don't understand something that's ok, what's important is that we humbly obey God, and then perhaps God will illuminate our minds, but for some it will take the Beatific Vision to understand however by then we won't care because we'll be with God.

I am a sinner with many faults, I have no right to tell you anything, I sincerely ask you pray that I make it to heaven, but I can only encourage you to do what's right. Freely rejecting God's teaching is not right.

May God give us the grace to be firm in all things that pertain to what He desires from us.

Edited August 10, 2008 by mortify

[Kitty]

I would hardly think that most Catholics agree with all of the church's teachings. I thought that you were free to disagree, but you still needed to obey its teachings. So is the church requiring me to "not agree with homosexual marriage"? I thought it was only PRACTICING homosexual marriage that would be considered a sin.

If a Catholic is pro-abortion, but still obeys church teachings and does not have one or help another person have one, isn't that also not a sin?

[KnightofChrist]

What the Church officially teaches is the Truth. If a catholic should have the opposite opinion on what the Church officially teaches that catholic would de facto believe something false. It would not seem we are aloud to believe something false.

[havok579257]

[quote name='Kitty' post='1623861' date='Aug 11 2008, 01:23 AM']I would hardly think that most Catholics agree with all of the church's teachings. I thought that you were free to disagree, but you still needed to obey its teachings. So is the church requiring me to "not agree with homosexual marriage"? I thought it was only PRACTICING homosexual marriage that would be considered a sin.

If a Catholic is pro-abortion, but still obeys church teachings and does not have one or help another person have one, isn't that also not a sin?[/quote]


You are correct. Another example is NFP. Some people don't believe in it at all and think the church should not be teaching it. Some right here on this board.

As long as you are not practicing it, promoting it or helping people to do it, its just your opinion. If everyone never had any doubts then we would all be like angels. Doubt is human nature and at one time or another we all have it.

[HisChildForever]

[quote]Some people don't believe in it at all and think the church should not be teaching it. Some right here on this board.[/quote]

I hope you're not referring to me, because I have stated on one of those threads that I now understand and agree with it.

[quote]I would hardly think that most Catholics agree with all of the church's teachings.[/quote]

Then they have no business calling themselves Catholic.

[havok579257]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1624117' date='Aug 11 2008, 12:38 PM']I hope you're not referring to me, because I have stated on one of those threads that I now understand and agree with it.
Then they have no business calling themselves Catholic.[/quote]


1. Well I was referring to myself and others but you know what they say when you assume.

2. Well then anyone who has doubts at all has no business calling them christians? Come on, are you serious? Doubt is human nature. God calls us to him by faith and faith alone. God and Jesus are not phsyically present before us to show the world 1000% that they are real. So because of that, people will have doubts. If anyone who has doubt is not conisdered a catholic, then is anyone good enough to be conisdered a catholic? I think your being a tad bit judgemental.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Kitty' post='1623861' date='Aug 11 2008, 02:23 AM']I would hardly think that most Catholics agree with all of the church's teachings. I thought that you were free to disagree, but you still needed to obey its teachings. So is the church requiring me to "not agree with homosexual marriage"? I thought it was only PRACTICING homosexual marriage that would be considered a sin.

If a Catholic is pro-abortion, but still obeys church teachings and does not have one or help another person have one, isn't that also not a sin?[/quote]
It depends on the teaching and if its dogma, doctrine or discipline for most things.
But if the Church, Sacred Scripture, and Holy Tradition all say with the authority of God that marriage is between men and women, how can you fail to disagree? How can you think a same sex couple being roommates [ it cannot be called a marriage] having homosex is in anyway comparable to what God has ordained? Where does it say we can disagree on basic fundamental teachings such as this? You might be swayed by all the rhetoric that we are violating a homosexuals rights as if marriage were purely a secular affair, but when is committing a sin a right?

But as in the abortion question you brought up how can you follow church teaching that abortion is murder and yet think its ok for people to do it as long as you don't actively help them. This the same as saying its ok to rob a bank as long as I don't help you.

[lilac_angel]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1624100' date='Aug 11 2008, 11:24 AM']You are correct. Another example is NFP. Some people don't believe in it at all and think the church should not be teaching it. Some right here on this board.

As long as you are not practicing it, promoting it or helping people to do it, its just your opinion. If everyone never had any doubts then we would all be like angels. Doubt is human nature and at one time or another we all have it.[/quote]

Choosing not to use Church-allowed NFP is a personal choice. Saying the Church is wrong for allowing it is stepping into slightly different waters and IMHO claiming some pretty heavy authority, but that's another debate. But that's still different than disagreeing with what's morally prohibited in the Church.

Edited August 11, 2008 by lilac_angel

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1624127' date='Aug 11 2008, 11:48 AM']1. Well I was referring to myself and others but you know what they say when you assume.

2. Well then anyone who has doubts at all has no business calling them christians? Come on, are you serious? Doubt is human nature. God calls us to him by faith and faith alone. God and Jesus are not phsyically present before us to show the world 1000% that they are real. So because of that, people will have doubts. If anyone who has doubt is not conisdered a catholic, then is anyone good enough to be conisdered a catholic? I think your being a tad bit judgemental.[/quote]
Doubt is [i]not[/i] the same thing as open disagreement.

[havok579257]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1624128' date='Aug 11 2008, 12:48 PM']It depends on the teaching and if its dogma, doctrine  or discipline for most things. But if the Church, Sacred Scripture, and Holy Tradition all say with the authority of God that marriage is between men and women, how can you fail to disagree? How can you think a same sex couple being roommates [ it cannot be called a marriage] having homosex is in anyway comparable to what God has ordained? Where does it say we can disagree on basic fundamental teachings such as this? You might be swayed by all the rhetoric that we are violating a homosexuals rights as if marriage were purely a secular affair, but when is committing a sin a right?But as in the abortion question you brought up how can you follow church teaching that abortion is murder and yet think its ok for people to do it as long as you don't actively help them. This the same as saying its ok to rob a bank as long as I don't help you.[/quote]No, he is saying he has a point of view that is not the same as the church.  Although his point of view is different, he does exactly what the church calls him to do.  He has doubts about what God really wants.  Something everyone has at one point in their life.  I to have doubts that every single thing the church teaches is 100% correct.  Its human nature.  Its called free will.  We are called to God and Jesus by faith.  We were not alive back when Jesus was on earth, so we did not see him in person.  So we are called to him and God via faith in them through the bible.  People have doubts , its part of faith and being human.  He is still as much a catholic as anyone.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1624127' date='Aug 11 2008, 12:48 PM']1. Well I was referring to myself and others but you know what they say when you assume.[/quote]

Well, when you said "Some right here on this board" I found that that strongly implied this thread.

[quote]2. Well then anyone who has doubts at all has no business calling them christians? Come on, are you serious? Doubt is human nature. God calls us to him by faith and faith alone. God and Jesus are not phsyically present before us to show the world 1000% that they are real. So because of that, people will have doubts. If anyone who has doubt is not conisdered a catholic, then is anyone good enough to be conisdered a catholic? I think your being a tad bit judgemental.[/quote]

Did I say that there was anything wrong with doubting? Of course not, doubting is completely natural and [b]hopefully[/b] doubt leads the individual to better learn, understand, and accept the Church's teachings. We're not talking about doubts here. But when it comes to [b]not agreeing with Church teachings[/b] - well, that's a bit more than just doubting, yes?

Could I be a Catholic and [b]not agree with[/b] the Eucharist? No. Can I be a Catholic and [b]doubt[/b] the Real Presence, but strive to understand and believe in it? Yes.

You simply can't pick what parts of Catholic doctrine you believe in, that's really not how it works. "Okay, God, I believe that the Catholic Church is the Truth, but I think you're a bit wrong when it comes to homosexual marriage." No, I'm sorry. You can't do that. That's a contradiction.

[lilac_angel]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1624148' date='Aug 11 2008, 11:56 AM']  We are called to God and Jesus by faith.  We were not alive back when Jesus was on earth, so we did not see him in person.  So we are called to him and God via faith in them through the bible. [/quote]

We're called by grace, too. And graces abound in the Church. The more we obtain graces, the more we understand and our faith and trust in Christ's Church can blossom.

[mortify]

"You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination."
Leviticus 18:22