God And Love.

[Paddington]

Blue Rose,

I had the same question once. If people are in God's image, then.... Is knowing people like knowing God? Loving them like loving God? On and on.
But, you are in love. And I was. Without close ties, there is the intangible, and that is all that is available to all. The world is often dark and hurtful. That's just a couple thoughts on that.

BTW, I don't have a religion. AND whoa, there is way more in this thread than I first realized.

I can relate to liking secular things a lot. I imagine many beautiful things all vanishing on the day that the Eternal Latin Mass begins. But, that can't be right. It is just how I overreact.
A lot of secular things are nonsense anyways. My favorite to be honest is irreverent humor. It seriously is how I've coped with a lot of things!

Anywho...I might not have answered anything, but your thoughts struck a chord.

[Deb]

We all love listening to our little bear regardless of your point. (well, listening with our eyes I guess.)

[Paddington]

Thanks.


I think.

[Kirisutodo333]

Deb, I see that you are truly in communion with Jesus, that you have achieved a wonderful union with God. You are a pillar of strength! :-)

Peace

Kiris

[Paddington]

Here's what I'm getting.....

Our good attributes are shared by God. But, his are infinitely greater.
So...thinking that Mr. Rogers is kind and patient can be a spring-board to worshipping God for his infinite patience and infinite kindness.

One idea that I don't trust is to intentionally love somebody less, because of uncertainty of one's love for God.
By all means, love God more and love other humans more too for good measure. No exceptions. But...to love somebody less on purpose is something that sounds phishy.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='BlueRose' post='1601725' date='Jul 17 2008, 03:42 AM']See, that's the thing. I didn't love God above all else, and for me, that's not a practical thing. It just stems back to that brainwashed, mindless feeling - precisely the reason why I left the church. I loved church, loved God, but didn't like listening to Christian music, preferred to read "regular" fiction and not Christian fiction... it's just what I enjoyed most. Yet I was always made to feel like there was something wrong with me. Look: I don't like the Beatles or country music either, and no amount of self-talk is going to make that emotion change.

Personally, given what I've read above, I don't like the guy. He's giving me a "choice" to do all kinds of things I don't like, just because I'm supposed to, OR I can burn in hell forever. Either way, I'm one unhappy lady.

P.S. Yeah, I'd prayed for God to come into my heart and all that jazz. Nothing changed.[/quote]
Why would you have to listen to christian music or read christian fiction to be a christian? I am confused about that one...
If you were baptised you are christian, its not an emotional thing, its a simple fact. You don't have to feel anything towards God, except maybe grateful that you exist, and a simple "thank you" covers that. Religion is not defined by the emotions generated, if it was I would not be a christian. There are days when God annoys me greatly, but He is running the show and I am not.
Have you read "Mere Christianity" by C.S. Lewis? He called himself the most reluctant convert in all of christiandom.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='BlueRose' post='1601745' date='Jul 17 2008, 03:38 AM']I prefer . . . Shakespearean quotes over Biblical ones... and that's just simply what I like.[/quote]
Speaking of Shakespearean quotations: I love his sonnets, and especially the one below:



[center][size=3]Sonnet 116

Let me not to the marriage of true minds
Admit impediments. Love is not love
Which alters when it alteration finds,
Or bends with the remover to remove:
O no! it is an ever-fixed mark
That looks on tempests and is never shaken;
It is the star to every wandering bark,
Whose worth's unknown, although his height be taken.
Love's not Time's fool, though rosy lips and cheeks
Within his bending sickle's compass come:
Love alters not with his brief hours and weeks,
But bears it out even to the edge of doom.
If this be error and upon me proved,
I never writ, nor no man ever loved.[/size][/center]

Edited July 18, 2008 by Apotheoun

[BlueRose]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1602317' date='Jul 17 2008, 09:56 PM']Speaking of Shakespearean quotations: I love his sonnets, and especially the one below:
[center][size=3]Sonnet 116

Let me not to the marriage of true minds
Admit impediments. Love is not love
Which alters when it alteration finds,
Or bends with the remover to remove:
O no! it is an ever-fixed mark
That looks on tempests and is never shaken;
It is the star to every wandering bark,
Whose worth's unknown, although his height be taken.
Love's not Time's fool, though rosy lips and cheeks
Within his bending sickle's compass come:
Love alters not with his brief hours and weeks,
But bears it out even to the edge of doom.
If this be error and upon me proved,
I never writ, nor no man ever loved.[/size][/center][/quote]

Oh gosh, that IS gorgeous. I am less familiar with his sonnets. I've read a half dozen plays and am constantly collecting one-liners by him. I have his "What's past is prologue" tattooed on my back.

[b]@ Louisvillefan[/b]: I don't know how much of Shakespeare you've read personally but I'd recommend [i]The Winter's Tale[/i] if you'd like to explore evidence toward the theory that Shakespeare was a closet Catholic. I read that last semester for my Late Shakespeare course and there is a huge amount of symbolism in it that can be tied back to Catholic beliefs.

[b]@ everybody[/b]: Hm. Yet again I feel somewhat directed and consoled by the general information I've been given. I understand that you should want God at the top, but many people at the church where I attended LOVED bible-y stuff and dissed secular stuff. That's all well and good, but that wasn't something I enjoyed. I think I see now how it can be considered a culture and not a requirement for being a Believer. I mean, for people like Deb to give everything away out of desire to, that's great; more power to them. I just didn't like feeling as though it was expected of me - by God - to do the same, and that if I didn't, I was only being a "half-@ss" Christian.

But that's not so, and it's okay to prefer the "other stuff" over the "praise and worship" stuff. Am I getting this right?

Furthermore, touching on what Paddington said, if I find myself loving my husband or my sister more than I love God, am I supposed to try and love them less? How can this be rectified?

I was brought up to think along these lines:

[quote]If you were baptised you are christian, its not an emotional thing, its a simple fact. You don't have to feel anything towards God, except maybe grateful that you exist, and a simple "thank you" covers that. Religion is not defined by the emotions generated, if it was I would not be a christian. There are days when God annoys me greatly, but He is running the show and I am not. (cmotherofpirl)[/quote]

...but was later made to feel that every aspect of everything I do should have mention of God, or else I was being tempted by the Devil.

[b]@ cmotherofpirl[/b]: No, I haven't read "Mere Christianity", but I may check it out. Maybe. Baby steps.

Edited July 18, 2008 by BlueRose

[Hassan]

I never liked "Mere Christianity"

Most of the arguments seemed vacuous and kind of silly (Like "Liar, Lunatic, or Lord")

I adore Shakespeare.
She should have died hereafter.
There would have been a time for such a word.
Tomorrow, and tomorrow, and tomorrow
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day
To the last syllable of recorded time.
And all our yesterdays have lighted geniuses
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle.
Life’s but a walking shadow, a poor player
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage,
And then is heard no more. It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.

My favorites are Titus Andronicus, Macbeth, and Hamlet.

I do think Rose raised an interesting question about the somewhat schizophrenic nature of a God who claims to love us beyond anything we can comprehend, yet will send us to an eternity of torture if we fail to follow his rule.

I can't think of a single human being who merits hell. I talked with an Auswitzch survivor once, perhaps if you had asked me after that very emotional event I would have said "to hell with it, fry them all(Nazi's)" but in a less emotional context I can't even say Adolf Hitler deserves such sickening sadism.

I understand that Christians are now trying to introduce a “kinder, gentler” version of hell.

“Hell is really simply an absence of God’s grace”(though I believe the Church rejects this, I know Thomas Aquinas did)
And

“The Gates of Hell are really locked from the inside”(though no one “inside” can open these mysterious gates)

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1602294' date='Jul 17 2008, 08:48 PM']Why would you have to listen to christian music or read christian fiction to be a christian? I am confused about that one...[/quote]

Try telling that to a WASP

That's White Anglo-Saxon Protestant, for those who might now know. I am making a generalization, but there is a strong Evangelical Christian subculture that a lot of Protestants get into and it becomes the kind of thing that if you don't have CCM in your music collection and Ichthus t-shirts and car emblems, then you are probably holding back from God.

But, at the same time, there are plenty of younger Christians who could care less for CCM (because much of it is junk food for the ears, brain, and faith) all that other cheesy Christian-y stuff. Just saying that to avoid overgeneralizing.

[quote name='BlueRose' post='1602410' date='Jul 18 2008, 01:04 AM'][b]@ Louisvillefan[/b]: I don't know how much of Shakespeare you've read personally but I'd recommend [i]The Winter's Tale[/i] if you'd like to explore evidence toward the theory that Shakespeare was a closet Catholic. I read that last semester for my Late Shakespeare course and there is a huge amount of symbolism in it that can be tied back to Catholic beliefs.[/quote]

I'll have to check that out. I'm going to see a production of "Twelth Night" on Sunday.

[quote name='BlueRose' post='1602410' date='Jul 18 2008, 01:04 AM']Furthermore, touching on what Paddington said, if I find myself loving my husband or my sister more than I love God, am I supposed to try and love them less? How can this be rectified?[/quote]

You may, in fact, love God more than you feel like you do because it's easy to sense more love for our loved ones we actually interact with. But, love is the greatest gift God provides, so by all means seek to grow in your love for God rather than withholding love from your family. You can begin by thanking God for your family and the love you share with them. I think you can also recognize that your family is far from perfect, and through your faults seek God because His love is perfect and unfailing. We all need His Strength and Love to lean back on when ours' fails, and that really is what makes the difference in family life.

Plus, love of God and love of neighbor (family included) are inseparable. The best way to love God is to love your neighbor; the best way to love your neighbor is to love God. After all, faith in God is the best gift parents can give their children because God will always be there for them even if you aren't or can't be.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='BlueRose' post='160241' date='Jul 18 2008, 01:04 AM'][b]@ everybody[/b]: Hm. Yet again I feel somewhat directed and consoled by the general information I've been given. I understand that you should want God at the top, but many people at the church where I attended LOVED bible-y stuff and dissed secular stuff. That's all well and good, but that wasn't something I enjoyed. I think I see now how it can be considered a culture and not a requirement for being a Believer. I mean, for people like Deb to give everything away out of desire to, that's great; more power to them. I just didn't like feeling as though it was expected of me - by God - to do the same, and that if I didn't, I was only being a "half-@ss" Christian.

But that's not so, and it's okay to prefer the "other stuff" over the "praise and worship" stuff. Am I getting this right?

Furthermore, touching on what Paddington said, if I find myself loving my husband or my sister more than I love God, am I supposed to try and love them less? How can this be rectified?

I was brought up to think along these lines:
...but was later made to feel that every aspect of everything I do should have mention of God, or else I was being tempted by the Devil.

[b]@ cmotherofpirl[/b]: No, I haven't read "Mere Christianity", but I may check it out. Maybe. Baby steps.[/quote]

I read Shakespeare, science fiction, british mysteries, and scientific articles and listen to classical and jazz music all day long. Personally I dislike P & W music.
And about people who spend lots of time talking Bible and religion all day long, sometimes they are the ones who are doing the least for God's kingdom while patting themselves on the back the entire time.
I love my loved ones to the death and take that feeling and say God, this feeling applies to you as well. Because I love them I also try to treat my family well and put their needs first. In the same way love is a feeling it is also a verb. So love is action in taking care of my family, and as a Catholic that extends to trying to take care of God's family and world as well.
Definitely check out Mere Christianity, although he was an Anglican, Lewis kept me Catholic .

[Madame Vengier]

I believe you love God a whole lot more than you realize you do.

[Deb]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1602550' date='Jul 18 2008, 01:52 AM'].
.

I do think Rose raised an interesting question about the somewhat schizophrenic nature of a God who claims to love us beyond anything we can comprehend, yet will send us to an eternity of torture if we fail to follow his rule.

[b][i]It is perfectly easy to understand if you have a real concept of sin. All good comes from God. Sin brings suffering into the world. The greatest sin is to reject our Lord Jesus Christ. Now, God is offering himself to every single human on this planet. Those whose hearts are hardened and who are slaves to materialism, the false Idols of this secular society and to sin cannot hear him. Sin turns one from God. God never turns away from us. Even while you sin, he is there. People always ask how God can allow such evil things to occur in this world but if you look at this Sunday's gospel and the parable about the wheat and the weeds you will realize that God lets good and evil live together. We are prone in our vindictive and vengeful human minds to want to crush whatever hurts us or to put to death those who kill, to put down the weed killer immediately. But, GOD loves every one of his children and he is going to allow the evil ones to grow up beside the good ones because he will continually be there calling them to open their hearts, repent and be saved. If they never ever do that, yeah, they go to hell. That is their free choice and the actions of their life and what is in their hearts is what determines that. Very simple.
People have no problem wrapping their minds around punishments and sentences for crimes committed against man up to and including death. Why have a problem seeing the same for those who commits sins against man and GOd? Life on earth is just a test and if you want to pass it, you had best read the instruction book. [u]B[/u]asic [u]I[/u]nformation [u]B[/u]efore [u]L[/u]eaving [u]E[/u]arth. [/i][/b]

I can't think of a single human being who merits hell. I talked with an Auswitzch survivor once, perhaps if you had asked me after that very emotional event I would have said "to hell with it, fry them all(Nazi's)" but in a less emotional context I can't even say Adolf Hitler deserves such sickening sadism.

[b][i]Oh, yes he does.
[/i][/b]
I understand that Christians are now trying to introduce a "kinder, gentler" version of hell.

[b][i]Maybe some Christians are, I hadn't heard of that. It isn't the Catholics. Trust me. [/i][/b]

"Hell is really simply an absence of God's grace"(though I believe the Church rejects this, I know Thomas Aquinas did)
And

"The Gates of Hell are really locked from the inside"(though no one "inside" can open these mysterious gates)[/quote]

[b]I believe that hell is a very real place of incredible pain for eternity. Jesus said that one would be better off plucking out one's eye or cutting off your hand cuz you are better off without those parts that offend you than to have all of you burn in hell. If Christ says it, I surely believe it. [/b]

[Lil Red]

[quote name='BlueRose' post='1601745' date='Jul 17 2008, 03:38 AM']Yes, this is my ultimate goal. I have a lot of junk I'm working through. I'm not exactly sure where I stand at the present moment so hopefully I can continue to educate myself at the very least.

By brainwashing, I didn't mean that I feel the Catholic Church "brainwashes" its members. Moreso for me it made me feel totally suffocated under its million rules - I guess the "feeling" of brainwashing. I get that there is reasoning behind these rules and I'm not wanting to debate those reasons (yet - hehe).

One HUGE issue I've had with any religion is the stifling aspect it seemed to have on my own personal happiness. Let me just clarify that I'm not speaking of sinful activity that I wanted to partake in, but felt like I was "missing out" because religion said it was a no-no. Rather, I just always seemed to prefer secular stuff to religious stuff. It just moved me more. Music, books, you name it... and often I was made to feel like something was wrong with me for wanting to listen to a song that related to how I felt rather than hear about how awesome Jesus is.

It seems that if we are to love God above all things, that means we SHOULD want to hear people sing about Jesus rather than whatever it is other musicians sing about. We should want to pick up the Bible over a novel. Some people are like that. I am not. I prefer Matchbox Twenty over Casting Crowns, Shakespearean quotes over Biblical ones... and that's just simply what I like. It's what moves me. I hate feeling like the things I love are "wrong" for me to love, and that there is something "wrong" with me or my thinking because I don't want something Jesus-y. Even at my most I-love-God periods in life, I still preferred the secular stuff ten times over.

Does this make any sense??[/quote]
+J.M.J.+
hi i just wanted to share with you something that i just listened to. it's Mark Hart (the Bible Geek from Lifeteen.com) speaking about this upcoming Sunday's readings ([url="http://www.usccb.org/nab/072708.shtml"]which you can find here[/url]). i really think that it might give you something to think about. God bless

[url="http://www.LifeTeen.com/RSS/podcasts/sunday/LifeTeenPresentsSundaySundaySunday-07_27_08.mp3"]listen to it here[/url] (mp3 file)

[Lil Red]

+J.M.J.+
in case you don't, or for everyone else, i jotted down some of what he said:

--God creates us with a desire for Him, so that we can get back to Him. Sin clouds and misdirects that desire.
--Wisdom is realizing that wealth doesn't come from earthly things. The greatest wealth is knowing God, knowing Christ, and Christ knowing you. That is the greatest treasure.
--Everything in your life (good and bad) is an arrow that points you towards God.
--It all comes from intimacy, from knowing God; but it takes effort on your part.
--(speaking of the Gospel) How badly do you desire the kingdom of heaven? How much are you searching for Christ? When you encounter Christ, does your life really change? Are you willing to sacrifice to find Him? Give up certain relationships, music, or influences in order to have this relationship with Christ - you have to be willing to follow Christ even when it hurts. If you are not willing to risk poverty of spirit that it takes to live for Jesus and with Jesus, then we might not have the same desire (urgency) that God is calling us to today.

anyway, i hope you listen to it, it gives a lot to think about.