God And Love.

[BlueRose]

Maybe someone can reconcile this for me.

It is written that we must love God above all things. Well, even at the height of my religious practice, I didn't. I mean, I felt "a love" for God and what he'd done, but for me it was difficult to love an intangible being. It's not that I wasn't open to the idea, didn't try, and so forth. I know positively I'm not the only person who has ever felt this way either. So, how is this resolved?

Here's a thought. Tell me if this works. See, I'm getting married in three months to one of the most beautiful human beings I have EVER been privileged enough to meet. I cannot fathom loving anything or anyone as deeply as I love him. Now I know all you parents out there just went, "Oh, just you wait..." :] Undoubtedly this is true; I'll have a new type of amazing love for my (future) little ones. That being said, I'm still not over this "loving the intangible being more" idea. UNLESS... by loving my husband-to-be, or by loving my children, selflessly and wholly - in the Agape fashion that Jesus asks of Peter very near his death - is that in essence loving God? I love him for what makes him pure and good, caring and funny, and on and on. Can it be argued that I am, in fact, loving what is God in him, and therefore still loving God above all else? Methinks this is an interesting way to look at it.

Edited July 16, 2008 by BlueRose

[Fr. Bruno]

[quote name='BlueRose' post='1600951' date='Jul 16 2008, 10:21 AM']Maybe someone can reconcile this for me.

I mean, I felt "a love" for God and what he'd done, but for me it was difficult to love an intangible being. It's not that I wasn't open to the idea, didn't try, and so forth. I know positively I'm not the only person who has ever felt this way either. So, how is this resolved?[/quote]

[left]Good question... but I'm not sure I have a good answer.
When I used to prepare young people for marriage, I often repeated that love is not just a feeling. Of course, in a marriage relationship, feelings of love are good and helpful ; but what when you all of sudden discover that you don't have special feelings for your partner anymore ? Or when you get the impression that some other person looks more attractive than the one you married ? That's the point where many marriages break apart... Unfortunately.
Marriage is based on a commitment to love. You can love someone without having special feelings for him (I'm not saying that's the ideal situation). For Christians, marriage is the image of Christ’s love for his people. What must He have felt on the cross ?
Love grows not just by showing feelings, but also by expressing love in very practical ways: by serving the one you love, by renouncing on your own preferences,...
I think it's similar in the case of our relationship with God. There are saints who did not experience any feeling of love for Him for many years. But they offered their lives entirely to Him, serving Him and his children in a remarkable way. On the other hand, there may be people who feel a great love for God, eventually be sentimental about it, but not really loving Him in a practical way. Of course, we can't make judgments about this: only God can judge.

Honestly, I'm somewhat skeptical about the idea of "loving God inside your neighbor". I have often met people who use this as a way of saying that there is no need for a personal relationship with God. We can only love Him if we believe in Him, if we concretely give ourselves to Him. However, we should always remember that He loved us first, up to the point of giving his life on the cross for us. I think the first step towards loving God is to accept his love for us. But this can't happen just in you brain; it's something that has to take place in your heart. So just keep asking Him to come in. [/left]
[font="Times New Roman"][size=3] [/size][/font]

[Kirisutodo333]

[quote name='BlueRose' post='1600951' date='Jul 16 2008, 04:21 AM']Maybe someone can reconcile this for me.

It is written that we must love God above all things. Well, even at the height of my religious practice, I didn't. I mean, I felt "a love" for God and what he'd done, but for me it was difficult to love an intangible being. It's not that I wasn't open to the idea, didn't try, and so forth. I know positively I'm not the only person who has ever felt this way either. So, how is this resolved?

Here's a thought. Tell me if this works. See, I'm getting married in three months to one of the most beautiful human beings I have EVER been privileged enough to meet. I cannot fathom loving anything or anyone as deeply as I love him. Now I know all you parents out there just went, "Oh, just you wait..." :] Undoubtedly this is true; I'll have a new type of amazing love for my (future) little ones. That being said, I'm still not over this "loving the intangible being more" idea. UNLESS... by loving my husband-to-be, or by loving my children, selflessly and wholly - in the Agape fashion that Jesus asks of Peter very near his death - is that in essence loving God? I love him for what makes him pure and good, caring and funny, and on and on. Can it be argued that I am, in fact, loving what is God in him, and therefore still loving God above all else? Methinks this is an interesting way to look at it.[/quote]

Loving God in with all one's heart requires one to detach themselves from all appetites of this world. One can love a husband or a wife, or even children with as much love as possible, but one cannot be ruled by that love where it makes one not able to give the greatest amount of love to God. Though a husband and a wife have a soul/spirit, the concept of "husband" and of "wife" and of "marital love" are finite, of earthly origin. To have perfect union with God, in other words, to love God as much as possible or not to sin, is to detach ourselves from all material desires, to transcend finiteness. You hit the nail right on the head when you said "loving the intangible." So for you what is "tangible", what is earthly, what is materialistic, what is finite, is more important, more deserving of your love. Well, that's just the thing, all throughout history, it has been said in our Judeo-Christian heritage and even in other non-Christian religions (Buddhism, etc.), we must love the infinite more than the finite, we must love God more than the material things of the world. All is vanity under the sun!

Peace

Kiris

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='BlueRose' post='1600951' date='Jul 16 2008, 04:21 AM']Here's a thought. Tell me if this works. See, I'm getting married in three months to one of the most beautiful human beings I have EVER been privileged enough to meet. I cannot fathom loving anything or anyone as deeply as I love him. Now I know all you parents out there just went, "Oh, just you wait..." :] Undoubtedly this is true; I'll have a new type of amazing love for my (future) little ones. That being said, I'm still not over this "loving the intangible being more" idea. UNLESS... by loving my husband-to-be, or by loving my children, selflessly and wholly - in the Agape fashion that Jesus asks of Peter very near his death - is that in essence loving God? I love him for what makes him pure and good, caring and funny, and on and on. Can it be argued that I am, in fact, loving what is God in him, and therefore still loving God above all else? Methinks this is an interesting way to look at it.[/quote]

Marriage and family are all designed by God to help bring us closer to Him, so I see no problem at all with praising God to recognize Him as the source of what is good and pure in your spouse and children. Our bodies make visible and tangible the spiritual reality that is invisible and intangible, and the union of male and female in marriage serves as a living icon of God's relationship with us, His Church. All this is created by God and is good, so it only makes sense that the creation can lead us back to God.

Of course, we can also find in Christ that God doesn't remain in heaven, hidden from our view on some distant cloud, but that He is a fellow human. Plus, we can be with physically and intimately in the Eucharist, when He gives His body to us as a husband gives his body to his bride.

[picchick]

I believe that by loving your family you are also loving God because He has lead you down this path. By the selfless love you describe you are likining yourself to Chris and His selfless love. We become closer to God through love of others.

I have struggled with this in the past. But I realize now that the things that I loved of this world (even the sufferings) were given to me by God. And thus, if I thank God for the things He has given me then I am acknowledging a love of Him.

I hope that this helps,
Meg

[rkwright]

[quote name='BlueRose' post='1600951' date='Jul 16 2008, 02:21 AM']Here's a thought. Tell me if this works. See, I'm getting married in three months to one of the most beautiful human beings I have EVER been privileged enough to meet.[/quote]

You haven't met me...


just kidding! I couldn't resist

[Deb]

[quote name='BlueRose' post='1600951' date='Jul 16 2008, 03:21 AM']Maybe someone can reconcile this for me.

It is written that we must love God above all things. Well, even at the height of my religious practice, I didn't. I mean, I felt "a love" for God and what he'd done, but for me it was difficult to love an intangible being. It's not that I wasn't open to the idea, didn't try, and so forth. I know positively I'm not the only person who has ever felt this way either. So, how is this resolved?

[b]We can only receive growth in our religious life by the grace of God and through prayer, the Mass, the Eucharist and the Sacraments. We have to ask God to give us those things that we lack or remove those things that are holding us back from him. [/b]

Here's a thought. Tell me if this works. See, I'm getting married in three months to one of the most beautiful human beings I have EVER been privileged enough to meet. I cannot fathom loving anything or anyone as deeply as I love him. Now I know all you parents out there just went, "Oh, just you wait..." :] Undoubtedly this is true; I'll have a new type of amazing love for my (future) little ones. That being said, I'm still not over this "loving the intangible being more" idea. UNLESS... by loving my husband-to-be, or by loving my children, selflessly and wholly - in the Agape fashion that Jesus asks of Peter very near his death - is that in essence loving God?

[b][i]No, it isn't. You can't give love to God by bouncing it off other people. You are supposed to love your husband and children. There are many forms of love, physical, romantic, brotherly, children for parents, others in religious community etc. Faith and Love should entertwine.
If you love and adore God above all else, then everything else is relative. Everything else will fall into place. Your priorities fall into the right order. You then obtain true freedom and the ability to make responsible choices. It all comes back to the first commandment and the commandment of Christ. Christ did not just tell us to love God. He told us to love God with our WHOLE heart and soul and with ALL our mind and strength. When we do love others through charity, we are loving God through them but, our first duty is to God before all others. We cannot love through charity unless we first know how to love God completely, wholly and above all others. Charity is love. [/i][/b]

I love him for what makes him pure and good, caring and funny, and on and on. Can it be argued that I am, in fact, loving what is God in him, and therefore still loving God above all else? Methinks this is an interesting way to look at it.[/quote]

[b][i]You may love him because you do see Christ in him but, by just loving him as your number one priority, you are not loving God above all else. It is an interesting way to look at it but, to me, and I am sorry if it offends you, it looks like a way to rationalize not putting God first in your life. God must be first for both of you and be a part of your marriage as God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit make up the trinity. So should a marriage be, with God in the middle, yet always first as one God. Loving God above all else only ensures the ability to love those in our lives and all of mankind with a pure and real love. Our personal salvation should always come before anyone else. No one can save anothers soul nor can anyone save yours.
[/i][/b]
[b][i]None of this is easy to do or maybe even able to be done without the Grace of God. When God flows through us like a river and our hearts are open and accepting and begging for his love, his love can then flow through us and out to others in many different ways. If his love is not flowing through us (and we are the ones who determine if it does or not, even if we aren't aware of it.) it cannot possibly flow to others in the manner that it should.
[/i][/b]
[b][i]Check out Matthew 10:35[/i][/b]

[jmjtina]

Mother Teresa felt the same and felt God's Love in everyone she met and served. In fact, she saw Christ in everyone, imperfect as they were.

But remember, while as humans we love imperfectly, God loves perfectly. While we may say and do things that will hurt the ones we love, God never will. God is perfect Love. That is something so different and almost indescribable and so much more than a love between a husband and wife it's mind blowing.

To try to grasp that, I would definitely recommend further readings. The more you get to know someone, the more you fall in love with them. So just as you have to invest time in your marriage, (or any relationship for that matter) it's going to take work, even with God. Praying isn't enough. Praying with reading scripture, holy books by saints and more on the faith has helped me grasp more of God's Love.

Hey, have you read 3 to get Married by Bishop Fulton Sheen? Great book!

And I think there is a book called "The 5 languages of love" that a friend was telling me about. It's similar to what Deb was referring to. I have yet to read it though.

Remember, God above all things. Invest the time. Praying for you!!!

[BlueRose]

See, that's the thing. I didn't love God above all else, and for me, that's not a practical thing. It just stems back to that brainwashed, mindless feeling - precisely the reason why I left the church. I loved church, loved God, but didn't like listening to Christian music, preferred to read "regular" fiction and not Christian fiction... it's just what I enjoyed most. Yet I was always made to feel like there was something wrong with me. Look: I don't like the Beatles or country music either, and no amount of self-talk is going to make that emotion change.

Personally, given what I've read above, I don't like the guy. He's giving me a "choice" to do all kinds of things I don't like, just because I'm supposed to, OR I can burn in hell forever. Either way, I'm one unhappy lady.

P.S. Yeah, I'd prayed for God to come into my heart and all that jazz. Nothing changed.

Edited July 17, 2008 by BlueRose

[BlueRose]

"We can only receive growth in our religious life by the grace of God and through prayer, the Mass, the Eucharist and the Sacraments."

I can appreciate your Catholic devotion here. However, this is not true for everyone. I felt MUCH closer to God at the non-denominational church that I attended. It was the first time I enjoyed praying and actively reading the Bible.

[jmjtina]

Actually, I'll agree with you to a certain degree.

We can receive growth in our spiritual life without Mass, prayer, and the sacraments. BUT we do need the grace of God. St. Paul for example was killing Christians when he was knocked off his horse!

Catholic devotion or non-denominational devotion, a relationship with God starts somewhere.
While I think we can start a thread to help you sort out the exactly what you mean by brainwashing and clear those misconceptions up, (hey, it's the debate table!) do not judge the Church on a few select members, especially the ones who thought it odd that you didn't like Christian music or made you feel like the odd man out for liking "normal" fiction.

Whether you decide to remain Catholic or completely change denominations after your married, if there is one thing I hope we can help you with, is the misconception of some things you may have, whether it's certain "brainwashing" or something entirely different. Pick something that is bothering you, and we'll clear it up if you wish. Whether you choose to agree or disagree with the Church is one thing, but I hope you come away with a better understanding of the faith. It may not be your faith, but you'll better understand it.

Besides, many saints had "Dark Nights" where they felt the absence of God. What do you do then? Leave the faith? It's definitely a possibility. That's why reading on the saints are so important for me, personally. It's like talking to someone who has gone through it and lived to say that faith is more than feeling the love of God. It's believing, hoping and fighting to keep faith when all our senses and emotions scream the opposite. Either way, we have something in common.

phatmass!

[BlueRose]

[quote name='jmjtina' post='1601733' date='Jul 17 2008, 05:02 AM']Whether you decide to remain Catholic or completely change denominations after your married, if there is one thing I hope we can help you with, is the misconception of some things you may have, whether it's certain "brainwashing" or something entirely different. Pick something that is bothering you, and we'll clear it up if you wish. Whether you choose to agree or disagree with the Church is one thing, but I hope you come away with a better understanding of the faith. It may not be your faith, but you'll better understand it.[/quote]

Yes, this is my ultimate goal. I have a lot of junk I'm working through. I'm not exactly sure where I stand at the present moment so hopefully I can continue to educate myself at the very least.

By brainwashing, I didn't mean that I feel the Catholic Church "brainwashes" its members. Moreso for me it made me feel totally suffocated under its million rules - I guess the "feeling" of brainwashing. I get that there is reasoning behind these rules and I'm not wanting to debate those reasons (yet - hehe).

One HUGE issue I've had with any religion is the stifling aspect it seemed to have on my own personal happiness. Let me just clarify that I'm not speaking of sinful activity that I wanted to partake in, but felt like I was "missing out" because religion said it was a no-no. Rather, I just always seemed to prefer secular stuff to religious stuff. It just moved me more. Music, books, you name it... and often I was made to feel like something was wrong with me for wanting to listen to a song that related to how I felt rather than hear about how awesome Jesus is.

It seems that if we are to love God above all things, that means we SHOULD want to hear people sing about Jesus rather than whatever it is other musicians sing about. We should want to pick up the Bible over a novel. Some people are like that. I am not. I prefer Matchbox Twenty over Casting Crowns, Shakespearean quotes over Biblical ones... and that's just simply what I like. It's what moves me. I hate feeling like the things I love are "wrong" for me to love, and that there is something "wrong" with me or my thinking because I don't want something Jesus-y. Even at my most I-love-God periods in life, I still preferred the secular stuff ten times over.

Does this make any sense??

Edited July 17, 2008 by BlueRose

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='BlueRose' post='1601745' date='Jul 17 2008, 06:38 AM']One HUGE issue I've had with any religion is the stifling aspect it seemed to have on my own personal happiness. Let me just clarify that I'm not speaking of sinful activity that I wanted to partake in, but felt like I was "missing out" because religion said it was a no-no. Rather, I just always seemed to prefer secular stuff to religious stuff. It just moved me more. Music, books, you name it... and often I was made to feel like something was wrong with me for wanting to listen to a song that related to how I felt rather than hear about how awesome Jesus is.

It seems that if we are to love God above all things, that means we SHOULD want to hear people sing about Jesus rather than whatever it is other musicians sing about. We should want to pick up the Bible over a novel. Some people are like that. I am not. I prefer Matchbox Twenty over Casting Crowns, Shakespearean quotes over Biblical ones... and that's just simply what I like. It's what moves me. I hate feeling like the things I love are "wrong" for me to love, and that there is something "wrong" with me or my thinking because I don't want something Jesus-y. Even at my most I-love-God periods in life, I still preferred the secular stuff ten times over.

Does this make any sense??[/quote]

That makes sense... and I have a strong premonition that what you're talking about here is unique to the Christian subculture of America that brought "Christian" labels to music, books, clothing, etc. I was raised Lutheran, so most of that stuff was unfamiliar to me until getting to know more Evangelical/Baptist Chrisitans in college. Personally, I would listen to The Beatles over Matchbox 20 But there's nothing at all wrong with appreciating "secular" creativity. One of my favorite artists, Jim Croce, was a fallen-away Irish Catholic. He didn't sing much about religion, save for "Which Way are You Going?", probably because like any other musician, he wrote and sang about things that were important and influential in his life. Religion wasn't one of those things.

FWIW, Shakespeare is largely suspected to have been a secretly practicing Catholic. There have been a few things written recently about references in his plays and how knowledge of Catholicism apparently helps one to see additional meaning in what he wrote. Can't say I've read much about it, since it is largely speculation, but always been curious to learn more about that possible relationship.

But, to bring it all around full circle, as Christians we believe God is unbelievably creative. Anyone who believes in the Creator can't help but be in awe at the complexity of the universe and life on our planet. By admiring another person's creativity, we're indirectly admiring God who gave them that gift, and we also gain a little insight into how everything in Creation, especially our bodies (since we are specifically made in God's image), points back to the Creator and helps tell the Story about our Father.

Humanity is beautiful and God has anointed us through the Anointed One (Christ = Chrism or Anointed) and we live in a beautiful world that God anoints through His sacraments. We needn't make something blatantly Christian to see God's handiwork through the work of Picasso, Bob Dylan, Shakespeare, and countless other artists.

Edited July 17, 2008 by LouisvilleFan

[EstoVir_TheWay_4]

[quote name='BlueRose' post='1601745' date='Jul 17 2008, 04:38 AM']It seems that if we are to love God above all things, that means we SHOULD want to hear people sing about Jesus rather than whatever it is other musicians sing about. We should want to pick up the Bible over a novel.

...

Even at my most I-love-God periods in life, I still preferred the secular stuff ten times over.

Does this make any sense??[/quote]

It makes perfect sense. I almost can't stand most praise and worship music. It all just sounds the same to me. Does this mean that I don't love God? No. I am striving for sainthood just as all Catholics should.

If you feel out of place preferring secular music or reading over the super religious, it's not the Church that imposes that feeling on you. It's people. Many leave the Church because of exclusive, overzealous Catholics who impose their over-the-top traditions on others. Not that traditions are bad, but people should be able to come to God at their own pace.

You should take your spiritual life at the pace that God intends for you. Not the pace others set out for you.

[Deb]

[quote name='BlueRose' post='1601745' date='Jul 17 2008, 05:38 AM']Yes, this is my ultimate goal. I have a lot of junk I'm working through. I'm not exactly sure where I stand at the present moment so hopefully I can continue to educate myself at the very least.

By brainwashing, I didn't mean that I feel the Catholic Church "brainwashes" its members. Moreso for me it made me feel totally suffocated under its million rules - I guess the "feeling" of brainwashing. I get that there is reasoning behind these rules and I'm not wanting to debate those reasons (yet - hehe).

[b]Being a faithful Catholic is very hard work. One reason feel suffocated is that they do not want to live by God's rules, they want to live by their rules. I know. I lived by my own for many many years. If you had great faith, which is a gift, gained by prayer and asking for it, you can then see the truth behind all the "rules." In actuality, there aren't rules. There is only the truth of God and his word. [/b]

One HUGE issue I've had with any religion is the stifling aspect it seemed to have on my own personal happiness. Let me just clarify that I'm not speaking of sinful activity that I wanted to partake in, but felt like I was "missing out" because religion said it was a no-no. Rather, I just always seemed to prefer secular stuff to religious stuff. It just moved me more. Music, books, you name it... and often I was made to feel like something was wrong with me for wanting to listen to a song that related to how I felt rather than hear about how awesome Jesus is.

[b]There is no happiness without God. There is an illusion of happiness and as we have absolutely no control over anything that will happen to us even five seconds from now, if we base everything on our pursuit of happiness, we will fail in the end. There is nothing in the Catholic faith that says you cannot listen to secular music or read secular books etc. Many people who are very close to God just prefer those things over the secular world. God asks us to give up every single thing on this earth for him. When you can do that, and you do that, he gives you back all you would ever need and more. When a person falls deeply in love with Jesus Christ, yes, even more deeply than you are in love right now, there is no interest in the secular world. It all recedes. If you can find a person to love while you are in that relationship with Jesus Christ, you would find a little bit of heaven on earth. No one should "make" you feel anything. There is not a single person alive who you should have a care as to what they think. Decisions should be made based on whether or not your actions would be pleasing to God.
[/b]

It seems that if we are to love God above all things, that means we SHOULD want to hear people sing about Jesus rather than whatever it is other musicians sing about. We should want to pick up the Bible over a novel. Some people are like that. I am not. I prefer Matchbox Twenty over Casting Crowns, Shakespearean quotes over Biblical ones... and that's just simply what I like. It's what moves me. I hate feeling like the things I love are "wrong" for me to love, and that there is something "wrong" with me or my thinking because I don't want something Jesus-y. Even at my most I-love-God periods in life, I still preferred the secular stuff ten times over.

Does this make any sense??

[b]It makes sense to me. I don't think you have hit the ultimate Love of God yet. You don't have to think about it when it happens. It is so evident. I am starting to realize that not everyone gets hit with a lightening bolt that takes them totally away from their life. For me, after the Lord grabbed me, I gave away 400 albums, 600 cd's, 200 dvd's and several thousand books. ( I have a collecting habit) They are being replaced with christian music and chant and gospel. My books are being replaced with spiritual reading and I can't get enough of it. I stopped going to bars, concerts and pretty much most things not affliated with Church. None of it was a conscious choice for me. God changed me from the inside out. I will say, this did not hit me until I was 51 years old? I never even knew God or what his Love was truly like. My sister tried to tell me for six very long years and I blew her off. Had I known, I would have been begging for him to enter my life. There isn't a single thing or person or book or cd or anything on this earth that I would not give up if my Lord requested it of me. (sorry mom and dad) You aren't there yet. I have made so many changes in my life and I have to work very hard every single day to maintain my relationship with God, even if it means avoiding things I love that I know will tempt me. Please don't blame Catholicism for your lack of faith or love or whatever. You reap what you sow. God gives back a hundred fold to what you give him. I pray you find that love to make your upcoming marriage even more spectacular. My prayers are with you. [/b][/quote]