Ccc Paragraph 841 (re Muslims)

[ICTHUS]

Has anyone ever read "1984" by George Orwell?

In case you haven't, "the Party" in 1984 basically falsified history (like the Catholic Church does in keeping important historical documents locked up tight in the top-secret vatican library) tortured people, (like the Catholic Church did during the inquisitions), and then imposed a system by which people could not think unorthodox opinions otherwise they would be abducted and tortured until they loved the Party.

My point? "The party" in 1984 basically taught that if it suited the Party's purposes that 2+2 should equal 5 and not 4, then they equaled 5, just because the party says so.

Just like Muslims worship the same God as Christians just because the Church says so, even though the plain word of Scripture says differently.

I believe in the authority of the Catholic Church, insofar as its teachings do not contradict the Word of God. No Catholic teaching I have seen, save for paragraph 841, blatantly contradicts the Word of God.

However, this will never cut the mustard in my mind.

I will never compromise with the Mohammedans, just like I wont compromise with the Prottys. Ill join the SSPX if I have to.

[Don John of Austria]

ICTHUS

In case you haven't, "the Party" in 1984 basically falsified history (like the Catholic Church does in keeping important historical documents locked up tight in the top-secret vatican library) tortured people, (like the Catholic Church did during the inquisitions), and then imposed a system by which people could not think unorthodox opinions otherwise they would be abducted and tortured until they loved the Party.

Man you really need to learn your history better.

[ironmonk]

The Church at the Time Said they had to do with Faith and Morals--- They Excommunicated people who resisted them, these excommunications where proclaimed in Council.  How exactly is it that you determine what has " nothing to do with Faith and Morals" unless it has been declared so By the Church for example the order of the Mass is a disiplne and has been stated to be so by the Church, can you show me were the Church said the Crusades where not at all having to do with faith and morals. I personally think a religious War has something to Do bioth with Faith and Morals--- Unless you are Saying that war is not a moral issue.

Show me with Church documents where they said it had to do with faith and morals.

Excommunication is discipline... it's a punishment... Excommunicated people are not kicked out of the Church, they are not allowed to receive sacraments.

God Bless,

ironmonk

[Don John of Austria]

Are you saying war is not a moral issue?

If you are not saying that War is not a moral issue then you must concede that the Church declareing War is of a moral nature. THere for it involves Faith and Morals.

[Don John of Austria]

By the Way you never answered my question---How exactly is it that you determine what has " nothing to do with Faith and Morals" unless it has been declared so By the Church?

[cmotherofpirl]

In case you haven't, "the Party" in 1984 basically falsified history (like the Catholic Church does in keeping important historical documents locked up tight in the top-secret vatican library) tortured people, (like the Catholic Church did during the inquisitions), and then imposed a system by which people could not think unorthodox opinions otherwise they would be abducted and tortured until they loved the Party.

Just like Muslims worship the same God as Christians just because the Church says so, even though the plain word of Scripture says differently.

I believe in the authority of the Catholic Church, insofar as its teachings do not contradict the Word of God. No Catholic teaching I have seen, save for paragraph 841, blatantly contradicts the Word of God.

However, this will never cut the mustard in my mind.

I will never compromise with the Mohammedans, just like I wont compromise with the Prottys. Ill join the SSPX if I have to.

THe Catholic Church does not keep documents locked up.

Where do you get this stuff?

Since the Catholic Church gave you the Scriptures, your position makes no sense. THe Church came before the Scriptures. SCriptures and the Church do not disagree. Your interpretation of the Scriptures is the problem.

Muslims have always worshipped One God, the Father of Abraham. THey got screwed up after that, but at least they got the first part right.

IC you a still thinking like a protestant.

[ICTHUS]

I find it interesting that no one has even attempted to explain 841 in light of the Scriptures that I posted....

Just goes to show, as I said, that the only way they (the passages of Scripture at the beginning of this thread) can be interpreted is in direct contravention of 841, thus, 841 is untrue and unorthodox.

Unless anyone can give me a better answer, I must rest my case...

[Don John of Austria]

Hate to break this to you Ironmonk but being anathamized is being separated from the Church not just being forbidden to recieve the Sacraments.

Since I knew you wouldn't believe me I went and got this from the Catholic Encyclopedia:

......At a late period, Gregory IX (1227-41), bk. V, tit. xxxix, ch. lix, Si quem, distinguishes minor excommunication, or that implying exclusion only from the sacraments, from major excommunication, implying exclusion from the society of the faithful. He declares that it is major excommunication which is meant in all texts in which mention is made of excommunication. Since that time there has been no difference between major excommunication and anathema, except the greater or less degree of ceremony in pronouncing the sentence of excommunication.

Anathema remains a major excommunication which is to be promulgated with great solemnity. A formula for this ceremony was drawn up by Pope Zachary (741-52) in the chapter Debent duodecim sacerdotes, Cause xi, quest. iii. The Roman Pontifical reproduces it in the chapter Ordo excommunicandi et absolvendi, distinguishing three sorts of excommunication: minor excommunication, formerly incurred by a person holding communication with anyone under the ban of excommunication; major excommunication, pronounced by the Pope in reading a sentence; and anathema, or the penalty incurred by crimes of the gravest order, and solemnly promulgated by the Pope. In passing this sentence, the pontiff is vested in amice, stole, and a violet cope, wearing his mitre, and assisted by twelve priests clad in their surplices and holding lighted candles. He takes his seat in front of the altar or in some other suitable place, amid pronounces the formula of anathema which ends with these words: "Wherefore in the name of God the All-powerful, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, of the Blessed Peter, Prince of the Apostles, and of all the saints, in virtue of the power which has been given us of binding and loosing in Heaven and on earth, we deprive N-- himself and all his accomplices and all his abettors of the Communion of the Body and Blood of Our Lord, we separate him from the society of all Christians, we exclude him from the bosom of our Holy Mother the Church in Heaven and on earth, we declare him excommunicated and anathematized and we judge him condemned to eternal fire with Satan and his angels and all the reprobate, so long as he will not burst the fetters of the demon, do penance and satisfy the Church; we deliver him to Satan to mortify his body, that his soul may be saved on the day of judgment." Whereupon all the assistants respond: "Fiat, fiat, fiat." The pontiff and the twelve priests then cast to the ground the lighted candles they have been carrying, and notice is sent in writing to the priests and neighbouring bishops of the name of the one who has been excommunicated and the cause of his excommunication, in order that they may have no communication with him. Although he is delivered to Satan and his angels, he can still, and is even bound to repent. The Pontifical gives the form for absolving him and reconciling him with the Church. The promulgation of the anathema with such solemnity is well calculated to strike terror to the criminal and bring him to a state of repentance, especially if the Church adds to it the ceremony of the Maranatha. "

Councils Anathamized over the Crusades.

[Don John of Austria]

Icthus---The Catholic Church assembled the Bible HER authority toi interprete both Predates and Supercedes yours. do not presume to take Her place. Now that being Said 841 is not infallable and could be wrong.

[ICTHUS]

And to post the Scriptures again...

John 14:6

Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

If you reject Christ as God you reject The Father:

Luke 10:16

"The one who hears you hears me, and the one who rejects you rejects me, and the one who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

If you do not honor Jesus you do not honor The Father:

John 5:23

that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.

If you do not love Jesus you are not of The Father

John 8:42

Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me.

If you confess Christ, you also have The Father. And if you deny Christ you do not have The Father:

1 John 2:23

No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also.

The bottom line:

2 John 9

Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.

Christ clearly said that HE WHO DOES NOT HONOUR HIM AS GOD, DOES NOT HONOUR THE FATHER. (and thus does not worship Him)

How, then, can Muslims worship the same god?

[Don John of Austria]

Christ clearly said that HE WHO DOES NOT HONOUR HIM AS GOD, DOES NOT HONOUR THE FATHER. (and thus does not worship Him)

How, then, can Muslims worship the same god?

Really you cannot worship without giving honor---everytime you sin you offend the HONOUR OF GOD. Do you not still worship Him.

[Don John of Austria]

Or is it that you do not sin?

[Don John of Austria]

This is from Lateran V-- It sounds to me like the Pope was speaking as The Pope hereas well as the Fact that this was approved by the Council. This sure sounds Like it is to do with Faith and Morals to me. Note that the Pope demands universal peace among Christians and a WAR AGIANST THE ENIMIES OF THE CROSS ALSO REFERED TO AS INFIDELS.

Leo, bishop, servant of the servants of God, with the approval of the sacred council, for an everlasting record. After we had been called by divine dispensation to the care and rule of the universal church, even though we are unworthy of so great a responsibility, we began from the highest point of the apostolate, as from the top of Mount Sion, to turn our immediate gaze and direct our mind to the things that seem to be of primary importance for the salvation, peace and extension of the church itself. When we focused all our care, thought and zeal in this direction, like an experienced and watchful shepherd, we found nothing more serious or dangerous to the christian state and more opposed to our holy desire than the fierce madness of armed conflicts. For, as a result of them, Italy has been almost wiped out by internecine slaughter, cities and territories have been disfigured, partly overturned and partly levelled, provinces and kingdoms have been stricken, and people cease not to act with madness and to welter in christian blood. Hence we have judged that nothing should be given more importance, consideration and attention than the quelling of these wars and the re-ordering of ecclesiastical discipline in accordance with resources and circumstances, so that with God appeased by a change of life, after quarrels have been set aside, we may be able to bring together and gather into one the Lord's flock entrusted to our care, and to encourage and arouse this flock more readily, in a union of peace and harmony, as by a very strong binding force, against the common enemies of the christian faith who are now threatening it .

This our intense desire for this campaign against the evil and implacable enemies of the cross of Christ is indeed so implanted in our heart that we determined to continue and follow up the sacred Lateran council -- which was summoned and begun by our predecessor of happy memory, Julius II, and interrupted by his death -- for that special reason, as is clear from all the different sessions held by us in the same council. Thus, with the christian princes or their spokesmen assembled at the same council, and prelates from different parts of the world coming to it, once peace between these christian princes had been settled and (as is right) the noxious brambles of heresies had been first uprooted from the Lord's field, then the things necessary for the campaign against the same enemies, and what concerns the glory and triumph of the orthodox faith, and various other matters, could be happily decided upon by the timely advice and agreement of all.

Although many distinguished men, outstanding in every branch of learning, came from different parts of Europe to this council, which had been solemnly summoned and duly proclaimed, many also, legitimately hindered, sent their instructions in official form. However, because of the difficulties from wars and circumstances as a result of which many territories have been blocked by hostile arms for a long time, the resources and large numbers which we desired could not be assembled. Moreover, that we have not as yet sent the specially appointed legates to kings and princes to promote union and peace between the same rulers -- something that perhaps seems necessary to many and that we too think is especially opportune -- cannot be attributed to us. The reason, of course, why we refrained from doing so is this: nearly all the princes made it known by letters and messages to us, that the sending of legates was not at all necessary or expedient. Nevertheless, we sent men of discretion and proved loyalty, endowed with the rank of bishop, as our envoys to those very princes who were undertaking serious armed activity among themselves and, as far as could be guessed, rather bitter wars. It has come about, especially by the action of these envoys, that truces have been agreed between some of the princes and the rest are thought to be on the point of giving their consent. Therefore we shall not put off sending the special legates, as we decided in the last session, whenever this is necessary and profitable for the setting up of a stable and lasting peace among them, and as we previously proposed. In the meantime, we shall not cease to act and reflect on what is relevant to the situation, with the spokesmen of the same princes who are negotiating with us, and to press on and exhort them and their princes to this action by means of our envoys and letters.

Oh that the almighty and merciful God would assist from on high our plans for peace and our constant thoughts, would regard the faithful people with more benevolent and favourable eyes and, for the sake of common safety and peace and for the suppression of the haughty madness of the wicked enemies of the christian name, would give a propitious hearing to their devout prayers ! By our apostolic authority, we enjoin on each and every primate, patriarch and archbishop, on chapters of cathedral and collegiate churches, both secular and those belonging to any of the religious orders, on colleges and convents, on leaders of peoples, deans, rectors of churches and others who have charge of souls, and on preachers, alms-collectors and those who expound the word of God to the people, and we order in virtue of holy obedience, that within the celebration of masses, during the time that the word of God is being set before the people or outside that time, and in prayers which they will say in chapter or as convents, or at some other time in any kind of gathering, they are to keep the following special collects for the peace of Christians and for the confounding of the infidels respectively: O God, from whom holy desires, and, O God, in whose hands are all power and authority over kingdoms, look to the help of Christians. And they are no less to enjoin on members of their dioceses and on any other persons of either sex, whether ecclesiastical or secular, over whom they have authority by reason of a prelature or any other ecclesiastical position of authority, and to encourage in the Lord those to whom God's word is proposed on their own or another's responsibility, that they should pour forth in private devout prayers to God himself and to his most glorious mother, in the Lord's prayer and the Hail Mary, for the peace of Christians (as mentioned above) and for the complete destruction of the infidels.

Further, whoever of those mentioned above think that, by influence or favour with secular princes of any rank, distinction or dignity, or with their advisers, associates, attendants or officials, or with the magistrates, rectors and lieutenants of cities, towns, universities or any secular institutions, or with other persons of either sex, ecclesiastical or secular, they can take steps towards a universal or particular peace between princes, rulers and christian peoples, and towards the campaign against the infidels, let them use strong encouragement and lead them on to this peace and the campaign. By the tender mercy of our God and the merit of the passion of his only-begotten Son, Jesus Christ, we exhort all of them with all possible emotion of our heart, and we counsel them by the authority of the pastoral office which we exercise, to lay aside private and public enmities and to turn to embracing the endeavour for peace and deciding on the aforesaid campaign.

We strictly forbid each and every prelate, prince or individual, whether ecclesiastical or secular, of whatever state, rank, dignity, pre-eminence or condition they may be, under threat of the divine judgment, to presume to introduce in any way, directly or indirectly, openly or secretly, any obstacle to the said peace which is to be negotiated by us or by our agents, whether legates or envoys of the apostolic see endowed (as said before) with the episcopal rank, for the defence of the christian state of the faithful. Those who, in working towards this peace, think that there is involved something of a private or a public nature that is of importance to their princes, cities or states, the care for whom or which pertains to them because of some office or public function should, as far as it will be possible in the Lord, with due moderation and calm take control of the matter inasmuch as it involves support and goodwill towards the coming peace. Indeed, those who wish to rouse the faithful by Christ's spiritual gifts, when these are duly contrite and absolved, and to pour out devout prayers for obtaining peace and for deciding on the expedition, so that the said peace and the campaign against the said enemies of the christian faith may be brought about and be secured from God himself, will devote worthwhile and well-considered efforts as often as they do this. These prayers, offered with devotion, should take place in masses, sermons and other divine services, in collegial, conventual and other public or communal prayers, and among princes, advisers, officials, governors and other persons named above who seem to have some influence in making or arranging the peace and in deciding (as said before) on the campaign against the enemies of the unconquered cross.

Trusting in the mercy of God and the authority of his blessed apostles Peter and Paul, we grant remission of one hundred days of imposed penances to those who, individually and in private, offer prayers to obtain the foregoing from God; seven times each day if they do it so often or, if fewer, as often as they shall do it; until the universal peace -- which is receiving our constant attention -between princes and peoples at present in armed dispute has been established, and the campaign against the infidels has been decreed with our approval. We lay an obligation on our venerable brothers, primates, patriarchs, archbishops and bishops, to whom the present letter or copies of it, accurately printed either in Rome or elsewhere, shall come under official seals, to have it published with all possible speed in their provinces and dioceses, and to give firm instructions for its due execution.

[ironmonk]

In case you haven't, "the Party" in 1984 basically falsified history (like the Catholic Church does in keeping important historical documents locked up tight in the top-secret vatican library) tortured people, (like the Catholic Church did during the inquisitions), and then imposed a system by which people could not think unorthodox opinions otherwise they would be abducted and tortured until they loved the Party.

The Catholic Church does not falsify documents. Important Historical documents are not locked up where no one can read them, they get locked up after they are old, but copies are made. Documents come out after a period of time, once everyone that lived during the time of history is dead, then the documents are released, out of charity for those who the documents were in reference to.

The Church NEVER tortured people during the inquisition; it was the local civil governments that did the torturing... And the torturing was not unusal punishment back then, every government tortured, protestants and Catholics alike... BUT NEVER THE CHURCH. Stop listening to anti-Catholics and do some quality study.I suggest reading a book called "Salvation at Stake" by Brad S. Gregory, a havard history professor, who happens to be a prot. Also visit: www.Catholic.com and click on 'anti-Catholicism', and www.Catholic-Pages.com

My point? "The party" in 1984 basically taught that if it suited the Party's purposes that 2+2 should equal 5 and not 4, then they equaled 5, just because the party says so.

That is not the case here, and it has never been that case in the Catholic Church. Just because you do not understand something, does not mean the Church is wrong.

Just like Muslims worship the same God as Christians just because the Church says so, even though the plain word of Scripture says differently.

No it doesn't. You know very little about the muslims. They worship the same God we do. They believe that God inspired the New Testament and Old Testament... They worship the God of Abraham, Moses, Isaac, etc... They believe Mary was a virgin, they believe Jesus was a prophet (as do the jews).

I believe in the authority of the Catholic Church, insofar as its teachings do not contradict the Word of God. No Catholic teaching I have seen, save for paragraph 841, blatantly contradicts the Word of God.

NO Catholic TEACHING CONTRADICTS THE WORD OF God!!!!! You need to learn context.

http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1sec...chpt3art9p3.htm

831

Secondly, the Church is catholic because she has been sent out by Christ on a mission to the whole of the human race:310

Who belongs to the Catholic Church?

836

"All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God. . . . And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God's grace to salvation."320

837

"Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who—by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion—are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but ‘in body' not ‘in heart.'"321

838

"The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord's Eucharist."324

The Church and non-Christians

839

"Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."325

The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ";328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329

840

And when one considers the future, God's People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.

841

The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."330

842

The Church's bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:

All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . . .331

843

The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332

844

In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:

Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.333

845

To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is "the world reconciled." She is that bark which "in the full sail of the Lord's cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world." According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah's ark, which alone saves from the flood.334

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846

How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847

This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

848

"Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

310: Cf. Mt 28:19.

319: LG 23

320: LG 13

321: LG 15.

322: UR 3.

323: Paul VI, Discourse, December 14, 1975; cf. UR 13-18.

324: LG 16.

325:Cf. NA 4.

326: Roman Missal, Good Friday 13: General Intercessions, VI.

327: Rom 9:4-5.

328:Rom 11:29.

329: LG 16; cf. NA 3.

330: NA 1.

331: LG 16; cf. NA 2; EN 53.

332: LG 16; cf. Rom 1:21, 25.

333: St. Augustine, Serm. 96, 7, 9: PL 38, 588; St. Ambrose, De virg. 18, 118: PL 16, 297B; cf. already 1 Pet 3:20-21.

334: Cf. Cyprian, Ep. 73.21: PL 3, 1169; De unit.: PL 4, 509-536.

335: LG 14; cf. Mk 16:16; Jn 3:5.

336: LG 16; cf. DS 3866-3872.

337: AG 7; cf. Heb 11:6; 1 Cor 9:16.

IT IS YOU WHO CONTRADICT SCRIPTURE

Romans 2:12

All who sin outside the law will also perish without reference to it, and all who sin under the law will be judged in accordance with it.

13 For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather, those who observe the law will be justified. For when the Gentiles who do not have the law by nature observe the prescriptions of the law, they are a law for themselves even though they do not have the law.

15 They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even defend them

16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge people's hidden works through Christ Jesus.

St Matt 18:17 (Jesus said) If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. 14 If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.

Luke 10:16 "He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me"

1 Tim 3:15But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.

The Church is the Pillar and Foundation of truth. To be the Pillar and Foundation of Truth, then the Church must have the authority to teach the Word of God, to teach it infallibly. Infallibly because it is guided by God.

However, this will never cut the mustard in my mind.

You deny basic beliefs of Catholicism... I really hope you do no partake in the Eucharist, because if you do, you profane it.

I will never compromise with the Mohammedans, just like I wont compromise with the Prottys. Ill join the SSPX if I have to.

It has nothing to do with compromising. It's sad that you fail to realize what the Catholic Church is... it was built by Jesus, and the netherworld will never overcome it. If you willing leave the Church that you know was founded by Christ, there will be no chance of salvation for you unless you come back to her.

You have got a lot of learning to do about Catholicism.

1 Corin. 9:19

Although I am free in regard to all, I have made myself a slave to all so as to win over as many as possible.

20 To the Jews I became like a Jew to win over Jews; to those under the law I became like one under the law--though I myself am not under the law--to win over those under the law.

21 To those outside the law I became like one outside the law--though I am not outside God's law but within the law of Christ--to win over those outside the law.

22 To the weak I became weak, to win over the weak. I have become all things to all, to save at least some.

23 All this I do for the sake of the gospel, so that I too may have a share in it.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Faith

2087

Our moral life has its source in faith in God who reveals his love to us. St. Paul speaks of the "obedience of faith"9 as our first obligation. He shows that "ignorance of God" is the principle and explanation of all moral deviations.10 Our duty toward God is to believe in him and to bear witness to him.

2088

The first commandment requires us to nourish and protect our faith with prudence and vigilance, and to reject everything that is opposed to it. There are various ways of sinning against faith:

Voluntary doubt about the faith disregards or refuses to hold as true what God has revealed and the Church proposes for belief. Involuntary doubt refers to hesitation in believing, difficulty in overcoming objections connected with the faith, or also anxiety aroused by its obscurity. If deliberately cultivated doubt can lead to spiritual blindness.

2089

Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. "Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him."11

9: Rom 1:5; 16:26.

10: Cf. Rom 1:18-32.

11: CIC, can. 751: emphasis added.

-------------------------------------------------------

God Bless,

ironmonk

Edited August 13, 2003 by ironmonk

[ironmonk]

It was not because they were muslims... It was because they were killing Christians. And war is not "faith and morals" it's discipline.

"for the sake of common safety and peace"

If the muslims that attacked back then were peaceful, loving, and did not attack, then the Crusades would have never happened. That council would not be addressing the issue.

"Written on their hearts" Romans 2:12-16... many muslims today show that they have the Laws of Christ written on their hearts. Those muslims are not enemies of the Church.

The full writings is here for those who wish to read it:

http://www.ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/LATERAN5.HTM

As for "Infidels"

Do you even know what the word means?! Obviously not.

Do you think the Church meant destruction of the Jews and Catechumens too?!

It was to the people attacking the Church - not the muslims. There were muslims that did not attack back then too... the Church did not want the peaceful muslims destroyed... only the ones who were killing Christians and trying to end Christianity.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08002b.htm

Infidels

As in ecclesiastical language those who by baptism have received faith in Jesus Christ and have pledged Him their fidelity and called the faithful, so the name infidel is given to those who have not been baptized. The term applies not only to all who are ignorant of the true God, such as pagans of various kinds, but also to those who adore Him but do not recognize Jesus Christ, as Jews, Mohammedans; strictly speaking it may be used of catechumens also, though in early ages they were called Christians; for it is only through baptism that one can enter into the ranks of the faithful. Those however who have been baptized but do not belong to the Catholic Church, heretics and schismatics of divers confessions are not called infidels but non-Catholics. The relation in which all these classes stand to the Catholic Church is not the same; in principle, those who have been baptized are subjects of the Church and her children even though they be rebellious children; they are under her laws or, at least, are exempt from them only so far as pleases the Church. Infidels, on the contrary, are not members of the ecclesiastical society, according to the words of St. Paul: Quid mihi de his qui fortis sunt, judicare? (I Cor., v, 12); they are entirely exempt from the canon law; they need to be enlightened and converted, not punished. Needless to say, infidels do not belong to the supernatural state; if they receive supernatural graces from God, it is not through the channels established by Jesus Christ for Christians, but by a direct personal inspiration, for instance, the grace of conversion. But their condition is not morally bad; negative infidelity, says St. Thomas (II-II, q. x, a. 1), does not partake of the nature of sin, but rather of punishment, in the sense that ignorance of the Faith is a consequence of original sin. That is why the condemnation by the Church of proposition lxviii of Baius: Infidelits pure negativa, in his quibus Christus non et praedicatus, peccatum est (purely negative infidelity in those to whom Christ has not been preached is a sin), was fully justified. But it is different with regard to positive infidelity, which is a sin against faith, the most grievous of all sins, apostasy. Being endowed with reason, and subject to natural law, infidels are not excluded from the moral order; they can perform acts of natural virtue; and so the ecclesiastical authorities had to condemn proposition xxv of Baius which declared that: Omnia infidelium opera peccata sunt, et philosophorum virtutes vitia (all works of infidels are sinful, and all the virtues of the philosophers are vices; cf. St. Thomas, loc. cit., a. 4; Hurter, Theol. dogm. , III, thes. cxxvi and cxxvii). Daily experience moreover proves incontestably that there are infidels who really religious, charitable, just, true to their word, upright in their business, and faithful to their family duties. One can say of them, as the Scriptures say of Cornelius the centurion, that their prayers and their alms are acceptable to God (Acts, x, 4). It was especially among such well-meaning infidels that the Church of Jesus grew up, and it is from their ranks that she gains her recruits at the present day in missionary lands.

...read more: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08002b.htm

God Bless, Love in Christ & Mary,

ironmonk

Catechism 841 is totally on the money. To say it's not is to rebel against the Church, which means <think of the soup nazi from Seinfeld> no Eucharist for you.

<i'm so tired...> Can I get a BOO YAH! When I did go to Catholic school (age 6, 7, and 8 - I got an A on religious studies )

Edited August 13, 2003 by ironmonk