Ccc Paragraph 841 (re Muslims)

[ICTHUS]

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

My response, from Scripture first,

John 14:6

Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

If you reject Christ as God you reject The Father:

Luke 10:16

"The one who hears you hears me, and the one who rejects you rejects me, and the one who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

If you do not honor Jesus you do not honor The Father:

John 5:23

that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.

If you do not love Jesus you are not of The Father

John 8:42

Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me.

If you confess Christ, you also have The Father. And if you deny Christ you do not have The Father:

1 John 2:23

No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also.

The bottom line:

2 John 9

Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.

And St. John Chrysostom says thus,

But at any rate the Jews say that they, too, adore God. God forbid that I say that. No Jew adores God! Who says so? The Son of God says so. For he said: "If you were to know my Father, you would also know me. But you neither know me nor do you know my Father". Could I produce a witness more trustworthy than the Son of God?

Me: If no Jew adores God because they do not know Jesus Christ, how much more do Muslims have no knowledge of the Father because they reject the Divinity of Christ.

At least Judaism has legitimate claim to be from God. Islam is just a bastard religion that was started up by a deranged lunatic who got people to worship a moon god called Allah and march around a big black stone 7 times. How could it POSSIBLY be of God?

Grace and Peace,

Ryan

[Norseman82]

Please read on to CCC 846-848.

(The Catechism link is not working, please do a manual search).

If you know that Christ and His Church are necessary for salvation and still

knowingly and willingly refuse to believe, you cannot be saved.

[VanHooty]

Yet, just to expand off of Norseman, there are elements of truth to be found in all things. Islam is "of God" because they worship the same general monotheistic deity that the Judeo-Christian tradition worships. While I am not highly familiar with Islam, I doubt there is as much of a parallel between paganism and Islamic beliefs as Icthus would suggest. Even in the event of a few parallels, mind everyone, there also are parallels between Christianity and paganism, so that in it of itself does not warrant calling the religion paganistic.

Now, we must also be quick to point out that Islam is not the fullness of truth. It is only partly true. Anyone who sincerely seeks truth must inevitably end up to Christ.

[Chrysologus]

The Catechism's statements about Muslims are neither dogma nor heresy. You don't have to believe them, but I do. The Catechism doesn't say that Islam is of God, but that Muslims "profess to hold the fath of Abraham" and that they worship the one true God. Because of this, God will use them somehow, but not at all in the same way he uses his Catholic Church.

[ironmonk]

Anything in the Catechism on Faith and Morals is Infallible.

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

Topic is Salvation, this is an infallible teaching of the Catholic Church. It has to do with faith.

Muslims believe that they are to Christians, like the the Christians are to Jews. They do worship the same God we do. They believe the OT & NT to be inspired works of God. They believe that Mary was a virgin.

To say something is heresy that is in the CCC, is to not know what it means to be Catholic. There is no such thing as heresy which is in the Catechism.

God Bless, Love in Christ & Mary

ironmonk

[Chrysologus]

Where does it say that the Catechism teaches infallibly?

[Chrysologus]

Apparantly Catholics are bound to accept all doctrine of the church, whether or not it is dogma, which means one must accept the Catechism's teaching on Muslims, which is church doctrine, though it has never been defined infallibly. Nevertheless, as far as I know, the Catechism itself is not infallible and does not carry the weight of dogma except in as far as it teaches things which have previously been declared dogma.

[cmotherofpirl]

Go read he introduction and preface to the catechism

[Chrysologus]

I just read it and it confirms that we are bound to believe what it teaches, but it doesn't say that it contains the weight of DOGMA.

[cmotherofpirl]

THe parts that are dogma we accept as dogma, the rest we accept as part of the ordinary teaching authority of the Church.

[Don John of Austria]

Chryologus is right the Catachism is not infallable only those things in which Are defined infallably are infallable, and no just because it is on Faith and Morals does not mean it is infallable.

[Don John of Austria]

Here is a statement from an Infallable source second Lyons, It strangly does not say the Muslims are in the

Plan of salvation but that Catholics should be moved by their piety to remove them from the Holy land as , their possersion of it was an insult to the Redeemer. Before it is brought up Saracen is the Medieval term for Muslim this iss a well known and documented Fact, and to deny itr is to act the Protestant, denying historical context.

Constitutions

I

[1a]. Zeal for the faith, fervent devotion and compassionate love ought to rouse the hearts of the faithful, so that all who glory in the name of Christian grieved to the heart by the insult to their redeemer, should rise vigorously and openly in defence of the holy Land and support for God's cause. Who, filled with the light of the true faith and thinking over with filial affection the marvellous favours conferred on the human race by our saviour in the holy Land, would not burn with devotion and charity, and sorrow deeply with that holy Land, portion of the Lord's inheritance ? Whose heart will not soften with compassion for her, from so many proofs of love given in that land by our creator? Alas! the very land in which the Lord deigned to work our salvation and which, in order to redeem humanity by payment of his death, he has consecrated by his own blood, has been boldly attacked and occupied over a long period by the impious enemies of the Christian name, the blasphemous and faithless Saracens. They not only rashly retain their conquest, but lay it waste without fear. They slaughter savagely the Christian people there to the greater offence of the creator, to the outrage and sorrow of all who profess the catholic faith. "Where is the God of the Christians ?" is the Saracens' constant reproach, as they taunt them. Such scandals, which neither mind can fully conceive nor tongue tell, inflamed our heart and roused our courage so that we who from experience overseas have not only heard of those events but have looked with our eyes and touched with our hands, might rise to avenge, as far as we can, the insult to the crucified one. Our help will come from those afire with zeal of faith and devotion. Because the liberation of the holy Land should concern all who profess the catholic faith, we convoked a council, so that after consultation with prelates, kings, princes and other prudent men, we might decide and ordain in Christ the means for liberating the holy Land. We also proposed to lead back the Greek peoples to the unity of the church; proudly striving to divide in some way the Lord's seamless tunic, they withdrew from devotion and obedience to the apostolic see. We purposed also a reform of morals, which have become corrupt owing to the sins of both clergy and people. In everything we have mentioned he to whom nothing is impossible will direct our acts and counsels; when he wills, he makes what is difficult easy, and leveling by his power the crooked ways, makes straight the rough going. Indeed, in order the more readily to effect our plans, having regard to the risks from wars and dangers of journeys for those whom we judged should be summoned to the council, we did not spare ourself and our brothers but rather sought hardships so that we might arrange rest for others. We came to the city of Lyons with our brothers and curia, believing that in this place those summoned to the council might meet with less exertion and expense. We came undertaking various dangers and troubles, running many risks, to where all those summoned to the council were assembled, either in person or through suitable representatives. We held frequent consultations with them about help for the holy Land, and they, zealous to avenge the insult to the Saviour, thought out the best ways to succour the said Land and gave, as was their duty, advice and insight. [ I b].

Having listened to their advice, we rightly commend their resolutions and praiseworthy enthusiasm for the liberation of that Land. Lest, however, we seem to lay on others' shoulders heavy burdens, hard to bear, which we are unwilling to move with our finger, we begin with ourself; declaring that we hold all we have from God's only-begotten Son, Jesus Christ, by whose gift we live, by whose favour we are sustained, by whose blood even we have been redeemed. We and our brothers, the cardinals of the holy Roman church, shall pay fully for six successive years a tenth of all our ecclesiastical revenues, fruits and incomes for the aid of the holy Land. With the approval of this sacred council, we decree and ordain that for the said six years, beginning from the next feast of the birthday of blessed John the Baptist, all ecclesiastical persons of whatever rank or pre-eminence, condition, order, or religious state or order—and we wish none to invoke for themselves and their churches any privileges or indults, in whatever form of words or expression these were granted, rather we recall completely those we have granted till now—shall pay wholly and without any reduction a tenth of all ecclesiastical revenues, fruits and incomes of each year in the following way: that is, half on the feast of the Lord's birth and the other half on the feast of blessed John the Baptist. In order to observe more carefully the reverence due to him whose undertaking this is, in himself and in his saints and especially in the glorious Virgin whose intercession we ask in this and in our other needs, and in order that there may be a fuller subsidy for the holy Land, we order that the constitution of Pope Gregory our predecessor of happy memory against blasphemers be inviolably observed. The fines prescribed in this constitution are to be exacted in full through the authorities of the place where blasphemy is committed, and through others who exercise temporal jurisdiction there. Coercive measures, if necessary, are to be taken through diocesan and other local ordinaries. The money is to be assigned to the collectors for the subsidy. Moreover, we strictly command confessors who hear confessions by ordinary jurisdiction or by privilege to prompt and enjoin on their penitents to give the said money to the holy Land in full satisfaction for their sins; and they should persuade those making wills to leave, in proportion to their means, some of their goods for aid to the holy Land. We direct also that in each church there should be placed a box fitted with three keys, the first to be kept in the possession of the bishop, the second in that of the priest of the church, the third in that of some conscientious lay person. The faithful are to be instructed to place their alms, as the Lord inspires them, in this box for the remission of their sins. Mass is to be sung publicly in the churches once a week, on a certain day to be announced by the priest, for the remission of such sins and especially of those offering alms. Besides these measures, to provide more assistance for the holy Land, we exhort and urge kings and princes, marquises, counts and barons, magistrates, governors and other secular leaders to arrange that in the lands subject to their jurisdiction each of the faithful pays a coin to the value of a tournois or of one sterling in accordance with the customs or circumstances of the region, and they should order a further small tax of no burden to anyone for the remission of sins; these contributions are to be made each year in aid of the holy Land, so that just as nobody may excuse himself from compassion for the wretched state of the holy Land, nobody may be dismissed from contributing or shut out from meriting. Also, lest these prudent arrangements concerning the subsidy to the holy Land be hindered by anyone's fraud or malice or craft, we excommunicate and anathematise one and all who knowingly offer hindrance, directly or indirectly, publicly or secretly, to the payment, as described above, of the tithes in aid of the holy Land.

Furthermore, since corsairs and pirates greatly impede those travelling to and from that Land, by capturing and plundering them, we bind with the bond of excommunication them and their principal helpers and supporters. We forbid anyone, under threat of anathema, knowingly to communicate with them by contracting to buy or sell. We also order rulers of cities and their territories to restrain and curb such persons from this iniquity; otherwise it is our wish that prelates of churches exercise ecclesiastical severity in their land. We excommunicate and anathematise, moreover, those false and impious Christians who, in opposition to Christ and the Christian people, convey to the Saracens arms and iron, which they use to attack Christians and timber for their galleys and other ships; and we decree that those who sell them galleys or ships, and those who act as pilots in pirate Saracen ships, or give them any help or advice by way of machines or anything else to the detriment of Christians and especially of the holy Land, are to be punished with deprivation of their possessions and are to become the slaves of those who capture them. We order this sentence to be renewed publicly on Sundays and feast-days in all maritime towns; and the bosom of the church is not to be opened to such persons unless they send in aid of the holy Land all that they received from this damnable commerce and the same amount of their own, so that they are punished in proportion to their sins. If perchance they do not pay, they are to be punished in other ways in order that through their punishment others may be deterred from venturing upon similar rash actions. In addition, we prohibit and on pain of anathema forbid all Christians, for six years, to send or take their ships across to the lands of the Saracens who dwell in the east, so that by this a greater supply of shipping may be made ready for those wanting to cross over to help the holy Land, and so that the aforesaid Saracens may be deprived of the considerable help which they have been accustomed to receiving from this. Because it is of the utmost necessity for the carrying out of this business that rulers and Christian peoples keep peace with each other, we therefore ordain, with the approval of this holy and general synod, that peace be generally kept in the whole world among Christians, so that those in conflict shall be led by the prelates of churches to observe inviolably for six years a definitive agreement or peace or a firm truce. Those who refuse to comply shall be most strictly compelled to do so by a sentence of excommunication against their persons and an interdict on their lands, unless the malice of the wrongdoers is so great that they ought not to enjoy peace. If it happens that they make light of the church's censure, they may deservedly fear that the secular power will be invoked by ecclesiastical authority against them as disturbers of the business of him who was crucified. We therefore, trusting in the mercy of almighty God and in the authority of the blessed apostles Peter and Paul, do grant, by the power of binding and loosing that God has conferred upon us, albeit unworthy, unto all those who undertake this work of crossing the sea to aid the holy Land, in person and at their own expense, full pardon for their sins about which they are truly and heartily contrite and have spoken in confession, and we promise them an increase of eternal life at the recompensing of the just. To those who do not go there in person but send suitable men at their own expense, according to their means and status, and likewise to those who go in person but at others' expense, we grant full pardon for their sins. We wish to grant to share in this remission, according to the nature of their help and the intensity of their devotion, all who shall contribute suitably from their goods to the aid of the said Land, or who give useful advice and help regarding the above, and all who make available their own ships for the help of the holy Land or who undertake to build ships for this purpose. Finally, this dutiful and holy general synod imparts the benefit of its prayers and blessings to all who piously set out on this enterprise in order that it may contribute to their salvation.[id].

Not to us but to the Lord we give glory and honour; let us also thank him that to so sacred a council a very great number of patriarchs, primates, archbishops, bishops, abbots, priors provosts, deans, archdeacons and other prelates of churches, both personally and by suitable procurators, and the procurators of chapters, colleges and convents, have assembled at our call. However, although for the happy pursuit of so great an enterprise their advice would be useful, and their presence as beloved sons is so delightful, filling us in a certain way with spiritual joy, there are difficulties for some as to staying on. Various inconveniences result from their great number; we do not wish them to suffer any longer the squeezing of the enormous crowd; and their absence may be harmful to them and their churches. A certain prudent love moves us to decide with our brothers' advice how to lighten the burden of these representatives, while pursuing our object no less ardently or zealously. We therefore have decided that all patriarchs, primates, archbishops, bishops, abbots and priors whom we summoned specially and by name are to remain, they are not to depart without our special leave before the council ends. The other non-mitred abbots and priors and the other {1} abbots and priors, who were not summoned by us specially and by name, and the provosts, deans, archdeacons and other prelates of churches, and the procurators of any prelates, chapters, colleges and convents, have our gracious leave to depart with the blessing of God and our own. We commission all who so depart to leave enough procurators, as described below, to receive our commands and both the decrees of our present council and any other decrees that may, with God's inspiration, be issued in the future. Thus, all so departing are to leave behind the following adequate number of procurators: namely, four from the realm of France, four from the realm of Germany, four from the realms of the Spains, four from the realm of England one from the realm of Scotland {2} , two from the realm of Sicily, two from Lombardy, one from Tuscany, one from the states of the church, one from the realm of Norway, one from the realm of Sweden, one from the realm of Hungary {3} , one from the realm of Dacia, one from the realm of Bohemia, one from the duchy of Poland. Furthermore {4} , it has come to our ears that some archbishops, bishops and other prelates, when they were summoned by us to the council, asked an excessive contribution from their subjects and committed great extortion, imposing heavy taxes on them. Some of these prelates, although they made great exactions, did not come to the council. Since it neither was nor is our intention that prelates in coming to the council should associate the virtue of obedience with the oppression of their subjects, we admonish prelates one and all with great firmness, that none may presume to use the council as a pretext for burdening his subjects with taxes or exactions. If in fact some prelates have not come to the council and have made demands on the pretext of coming, it is our will and precise command that they make restitution without delay. Those however who have oppressed their subjects, demanding excessive contributions, should take care to make amends to them without creating difficulties, and so fulfil our commands that we do not have to apply a remedy by our authority.

[ironmonk]

Chryologus is right the Catachism is not infallable only those things in which Are defined infallably are infallable, and no just because it is on Faith and Morals does not mean it is infallable.

The Catechism is mostly infallible. Anything on faith and morals is infallible which is the official teaching of the Church is infallible, to say it's not is to not understand what infallible is and/or what the Catechism is.

It is the offical teachings that have been brought up in council and God has guided on.

Any officially-issued document of the Church is infallible when it teaches things the Church teaches infallibly anywhere else in its magisterial reach.

The Catechism is the official teaching of the Church; ANYTHING on faith and morals within the Catechism IS infallible. If you believe otherwise, then you do not know what infallible means.

"The Catechism is a summary of the official teaching of the Church. The official teachings of the church are ranked in four levels. Only Level 1 and some Level 2 teachings are infallible. Level 1 teachings are the defined dogma such as the divinity of Christ. Level 2 teachings are "definitive" teachings that may not rise quite to the defined dogma, but nevertheless may be infallible -- such as the teaching that Holy Orders is reserved to men only. The Catechism as a whole book is not infallible, but there are teachings WITHIN the Catechism that ARE infallible. However, whether infallible or not, we are REQUIRED to OBEY all official teachings and disciplines of the Church.So, every Catholic needs to heed the teachings in the Catechism no matter if they are infallible or not."

"The Catechism of the Catholic Church is a superb, up-to-date compendium of what should be believed by Catholics. Not everything in the Catechism is infallible teaching, but it is all authentic teaching: that is, what is taught by those to whom Christ entrusted both His revelation and His exclusive guarantee of sure assistance in rightly interpreting it. This is what matters."

FAQ From the US Conf. Of Bishops:

http://www.usccb.org/catechism/general/q&a.htm

19. Is the doctrinal authority of the Catechism equal to that of the dogmatic definitions of a pope or ecumenical council?

By its very nature, a catechism presents the fundamental truths of the faith which have already been communicated and defined. Because the Catechism presents Catholic doctrine in a complete yet summary way, it naturally contains the infallible doctrinal definitions of the popes and ecumenical councils in the history of the Church. It also presents teaching which has not been communicated and defined in these most solemn forms. This does not mean that such teaching can be disregarded or ignored. Quite to the contrary, the Catechism presents Catholic doctrine as an organic whole and as it is related to Christ who is the center. A major catechism, such as the Catechism of the Catholic Church, presents a compendium of Church teachings and has the advantage of demonstrating the harmony that exists among those teachings.

20. Is the doctrinal authority of the Catechism equal to the documents of the Second Vatican Council?

Just as the Catechism contains the most solemnly defined dogmas of the Church, it also contains the teachings of the Second Vatican Council. The worldwide consultation of the bishops that preceded the promulgation of the Catechism gives it a collegial character. It is, as the Holy Father has said, "the result of a collaboration of the whole episcopate." It would seem, however, that the Catechism did not have the benefit of the complete exercise of effective collegiality that accompanies the writing, disputation, revision, consensus, agreement and eventual promulgation of documents of an ecumenical council. But it must be noted that the form of a catechism is distinct from the form of conciliar documents. They are complimentary, but they are not identical.

21. Does this mean that the Catechism can be disregarded?

No. The Catechism is part of the Church's ordinary teaching authority. The Holy Father has placed his apostolic authority behind it. Its doctrinal authority is proper to the papal magisterium. In Fidei Depositum the Holy Father has termed the Catechism a "sure norm for the teaching of the faith" and "a sure and authentic reference text." He has asked "the Church's pastors and the Christian faithful to receive this catechism in a spirit of communion and to use it assiduously in fulfilling their mission of proclaiming the faith and calling the people to the life of the gospel."

God Bless,

ironmonk

[cmotherofpirl]

Yeah Iron but I only took one line and I said the same thing. :D

[ICTHUS]

Im sorry, that just doesn't cut the mustard with me. "Its right because the Church says it's right" - there have been a few times during history when a Pope has declared something "infallibly", it was proven wrong, and the conditions for infallibility were not shown to be met.

All other Church teachings can be proven with Sacred Tradition or Scripture. I accept that both have equal weighting. I am not a Protty (although I used to be) , and I do not believe in Sola Scriptura.

However, I believe I speak in unison with the Scripture, as well as the Fathers, when I say that CCC 841 is wrong, and it is heretical. It contradicts Tradition and Scripture, and it is the invention of liberalists with no regard whatsoever for Truth, or what the Roman Catholic Church has taught for two millenia.

Grace and peace,

Ryan