Hysterectomies/sterilization And Sex

[havok579257]

Ok, got a question and wondered if anyone can answer this for me. If a woman during child birth is forced to have a hysterectomy or some other form of sterilization to save mom's life, thus causing her to be sterile and not be able to have kids anymore what is the point of the man ending the correct way? I understand if there is a possibility of having kids, but is why does it matter if there is no chance of having a kid? Or for instance with a couple well into their later years in life. Does it seem like, to anyone else, this is just a broad answer that is thrown on all married couples and does not take into account all instances of a married sex life? To me it makes no sense in instances like this for it to matter how a man ends if there is no chance for the couple to get pregnant. Any help on this one guys and gals?

[CatherineM]

It's about being open to life. It's about giving yourself completely to your spouse. We married at 43, and with my health history, it was a given that I couldn't get pregnant. 4 pregnancies and miscarriages later, they changed the "can't get pregnant" to "shouldn't get pregnant." Women who have had their tubes tied have gotten pregnant, as have men who have had vasectomies. I believe there has even been a woman who had an intestinal gestation without the womb. We can never now what God has in mind for us. We shouldn't be looking for loopholes for reasons to do things the way we want, we should always be open to just doing things the way intended. It's hard though.

[Ookami]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1600631' date='Jul 15 2008, 07:40 PM']It's about being open to life. It's about giving yourself completely to your spouse. We married at 43, and with my health history, it was a given that I couldn't get pregnant. 4 pregnancies and miscarriages later, they changed the "can't get pregnant" to "shouldn't get pregnant." Women who have had their tubes tied have gotten pregnant, as have men who have had vasectomies. I believe there has even been a woman who had an intestinal gestation without the womb. We can never now what God has in mind for us. We shouldn't be looking for loopholes for reasons to do things the way we want, we should always be open to just doing things the way intended. It's hard though.[/quote]

r we talking about why getting surgery 2 prevent pregnancy is wrong?

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Ookami' post='1600642' date='Jul 15 2008, 05:57 PM']r we talking about why getting surgery 2 prevent pregnancy is wrong?[/quote]
No, we're talking about whether or not the man has to 'finish' the marital act in the way commanded by the Church if there's "no" chance of the woman conceiving a child.

[friendofJPII]

I have a friend who had endometriosis and they almost had to perform a hysterectomy to save her life. If they did, she the principal of double effect would come in, the intention was to save her life, not sterilize her.

As to weather the man has to finish the marital act, I would say yes, lest, the rules would change for all those over age 50, as well. I"m not sure, tho.

[havok579257]

[quote name='friendofJPII' post='1600710' date='Jul 15 2008, 08:28 PM']I have a friend who had endometriosis and they almost had to perform a hysterectomy to save her life. If they did, she the principal of double effect would come in, the intention was to save her life, not sterilize her.

As to weather the man has to finish the marital act, I would say yes, lest, the rules would change for all those over age 50, as well. I"m not sure, tho.[/quote]


This is what I was saying, it seems like the church just used a broad stroke her and put this n place to apply to everyone even though it would not apply to everyone.

Vasectimies and tubes tied are different than what I am talking about. I am talking about things that happen which leave no chance of children, like a man with testicular cancer and had to have one or two removed. Or a couple who is 60-100 y/o.

It seems to me the church said, let's just put this in place and for everyone who is does not apply to, well they can just follow the same rules also.

[CatherineM]

Everyone talks about the church having so many rules about sex. It just doesn't work that way. Marital intimacy isn't about some kind of choreographed ritual and deviating from it means going to hell. It's about giving yourself completely to another human being. When it's done right, there just isn't anything else on Earth that can match it. We can sit here and make 100 hypotheticals about couples, and come up with 100 different reasons why someone wants to do something that they know isn't part of the natural plan for a man and a woman. When what we have is so perfect, why do we need to worry and wonder about what other promiscuous people are doing and "getting away" with.

What is so hard about be content with "enough."

[picchick]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1600751' date='Jul 15 2008, 10:02 PM']Everyone talks about the church having so many rules about sex. It just doesn't work that way. Marital intimacy isn't about some kind of choreographed ritual and deviating from it means going to hell. It's about giving yourself completely to another human being. When it's done right, there just isn't anything else on Earth that can match it. We can sit here and make 100 hypotheticals about couples, and come up with 100 different reasons why someone wants to do something that they know isn't part of the natural plan for a man and a woman. When what we have is so perfect, why do we need to worry and wonder about what other promiscuous people are doing and "getting away" with.

What is so hard about be content with "enough."[/quote]

Oh my gosh....you are awesome! To me this is exactly what it is. If you have these surgeries because you are preventing life then you are not giving 100%. The key is giving yourself completely to the other person without holding anything back

Catherine, you rock my world.

[havok579257]

[quote name='picchick' post='1600752' date='Jul 15 2008, 10:06 PM']Oh my gosh....you are awesome! To me this is exactly what it is. If you have these surgeries because you are preventing life then you are not giving 100%. The key is giving yourself completely to the other person without holding anything back

Catherine, you rock my world.[/quote]

never once did i say these were to avoid pregnancy. although speaking of pregnancy, whats the point of a man ending inside a woman when having sex when she is already pregnant?

a. your already open to life as the couple is pregnant

and

b. you got no chance of being 6 months pregnant and getting pregnant while already pregnant.

[havok579257]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1600751' date='Jul 15 2008, 10:02 PM']Everyone talks about the church having so many rules about sex. It just doesn't work that way. Marital intimacy isn't about some kind of choreographed ritual and deviating from it means going to hell. It's about giving yourself completely to another human being. When it's done right, there just isn't anything else on Earth that can match it. We can sit here and make 100 hypotheticals about couples, and come up with 100 different reasons why someone wants to do something that they know isn't part of the natural plan for a man and a woman. When what we have is so perfect, why do we need to worry and wonder about what other promiscuous people are doing and "getting away" with.

What is so hard about be content with "enough."[/quote]


this has nothing to do with non-married adults. it was about married couple, i have no idea what thread you are reading./

[havok579257]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1600751' date='Jul 15 2008, 10:02 PM']Everyone talks about the church having so many rules about sex. It just doesn't work that way. Marital intimacy isn't about some kind of choreographed ritual and deviating from it means going to hell. It's about giving yourself completely to another human being. When it's done right, there just isn't anything else on Earth that can match it. We can sit here and make 100 hypotheticals about couples, and come up with 100 different reasons why someone wants to do something that they know isn't part of the natural plan for a man and a woman. When what we have is so perfect, why do we need to worry and wonder about what other promiscuous people are doing and "getting away" with.

What is so hard about be content with "enough."[/quote]


No offense, but I absolutly hate it when people give answers of just accept something. Why is it so bad to understand things? Why must we shut our eyes to knowledge and not question anything?

[picchick]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1600764' date='Jul 15 2008, 10:19 PM']never once did i say these were to avoid pregnancy. although speaking of pregnancy, whats the point of a man ending inside a woman when having sex when she is already pregnant?

a. your already open to life as the couple is pregnant

and

b. you got no chance of being 6 months pregnant and getting pregnant while already pregnant.[/quote]

I am sorry....I wasn't referring to your original post...I was referring to Catherine's because there are other threads that go on for pages with people going back and forth on the topics. I honestly do not know the answer to your question. I haven't thought about it enough yet. Again, my apologies. I hope I did not make you upset.

[picchick]

I guess I could quote the bible scripture from the New Testament about how it is a sin for man to spill his seed.

But I think also that God intended sex to be that way. At least that is my thought. If the man does not finish as he would otherwise it is not giving the 100%.

I am not too familiar with the whole sex thing though at the moment...but would there be a reason the man would not want to finish the usual way?

[Justin86]

[quote name='picchick' post='1600784' date='Jul 16 2008, 11:39 AM']I am not too familiar with the whole sex thing though at the moment...but would there be a reason the man would not want to finish the usual way?[/quote]
I don't understand this exactly either. We men tend to get frustrated if we don't finish.

[CatherineM]

I was taking about married couples. Unmarried couples are already outside the covenant, so what's one more breach of nature.

You seem to want to know why couples can't just do mutual masturbation or oral sex when there is no possibility of conception because of age or medical reasons, or pregnancy. My grandfather was born when my great-grandmother was 48 years old. I'm sure she thought she was too old. My great-grandfather had fallen out of the hay loft and couldn't walk anymore. I'm sure they thought he couldn't make babies anymore either. I'm obviously quite pleased the doctors were wrong, or I wouldn't be here. As to pregnant women, there have been women pregnant with two children conceived at different times, and sometimes even by different men.

But, to completely take miracles and long shots off the table, to answer the question you are so desperate to have enumerated, it isn't allowed because it isn't fullness. I am a questioner. I used to drive my parents half insane trying to work thing out. The older you get, the more experiences you have, you have just as many questions, but you more understanding about how stuff really works. There were times, when I questioned everything the church teaches. It's one of the reasons I went back to get a degree in theology. To understand.

I didn't completely and truly understand about the church's sexual morality teachings, until I was married. The activities that you are asking about, are pale shadows in comparison to what a loving couple share, whether they can conceive or not. The church doesn't teach this stuff to be mean, or stifling. It teaches out of love, and wisdom and experiences handed down and tested for centuries. There is an inherent selfishness in anything short of a completion in a marriage. When selfishness creeps in, the marriage isn't as strong. It's just that simple. I handled many divorces in my career, and selfishness or immaturity were at the root of every one of them. That's how I came to my understanding. I hope you get to that understanding some day without a lot of heartache first.